On Sunday, October 21, 2012 7:19:42 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
> CRAIG: Cool Roger, 
> It mostly makes sense to me, except I don't understand why I. is 
> associated with objects and substance when it is feeling, perception, and 
> first person quale. 
> ROGER: It is not uncommon to find such objective/subjective dyslexia in 
> the literature. 
>     This stuff is hard to get a hold of.

It can be, yeah, although my model makes it really easy. Subject and object 
are poles on a continuum, with private, proprietary, solipsistic, 
trans-rational sense qualities on the East (Orienting) end and public, 
generic, nihilistic, logical realism quantities on the Western end. In the 
center region between the two poles, subjectivity and objectivity are 
clearly discernible as inner and outer body/world perception (I call this 
the mundane fold as it is like a crease which acts as a barrier). In the 
edge region, the East and West actually meet in the sort of transcendental 
oblivion of subjective union with the ultimate (nirvana, satori, 
enlightenment, etc)

> CRAIG: To me, thinking is just as much first person as feeling, and they 
> both are subjective qualia. 
>     Thinking is a meta-quale of feeling (which is a meta-quale of 
> awareness>perception>sensation>sense) 
> ROGER: Actually I have yet to find a clear or useful definition of 
> thinking (how it works). 
>     In fact Wittgenstein at one point said that he does not know what 
> thinking is (!).
>     But I believe you have to think if you compare objects across an 
> equals sign,
>     so comparison (a dyad) seems to me to be a basic type of thinking.

A think a comparison is a basic type of everything. As luck would have it, 
I just posted this definition for what a thought is yesterday:

What exactly is a thought? <http://s33light.org/post/33997036879> A thought 
is a private, personal, directly participatory narrative subjective 
experience which is typically expressed in a verbal-gestural sense modality 
(as words or feelings easily converted to words by an agency of proprietary 
interior voice). Thoughts can be discerned from images, awareness, and 
perception by their potential purposefulness; they serve as the seeds for 
public action. Generally public actions which are understood to be 
voluntary are assumed to be the consequence of private thoughts. Behaviors 
which are ‘thoughtless’ are deemed to be unconscious, subconscious, 
accidental, or socially impaired.


> CRAIG: That puts the whole subjective enchilada as Firstness and leaves 
> objects and 
>     substance to Secondness. This is Self-Body distinction. What you have 
> is like 
>     Lower-Self/Higher- Self distinction but with objects kind of 
> shoehorned in there. 
>     Once you see matter as a public extension and self as a private 
> intention, then 
>     Thirdness arises as the spatiotemporal interaction of formation and 
> information. 
> ROGER: Yes, distinction is another form of basic thought. But that 
> requires the ability to compare.

First you have to be able to distinguish things before you can compare 
them, otherwise what would you be comparing? 

> CRAIG: That outlines one way of slicing the pizza. I don't know if you can 
> see this but here: 
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Xz8OmKGPEjE/UIL6EtVeBEI/AAAAAAAAAZ4/iBhuMxBj9oU/s1600/trio_sml_entropy.jpg
> That gives a better idea of the syzygy effect of the big picture, how they 
> overlap in different ways and set each other off in a multi-sense way. 
> The Firstness, Secondness, and Thirdness relate respectively to the 
> respective trios: 
> I. Sense, Motive 
> II. Matter, Energy, 
> III. Space, Time 
> ROGER: I could see it, but couldn't see how to interpret it, but's thats 
> OK.
>     The categories, like Hegel's dialectic, seem to be a basic take on 
> existence,
>     So no doubt there are many approaches to defining them, yours 
> included. 
> CRAIG: to get to morality, you have to look at the black and white: 
> IV. Signal (escalating significance), Entropy aka Ent ntr rop opy 
> (attenuating significance...
>     fragmentation and redundancy obstructs discernment capacities...
>     information entropy generates thermodynamic entropy through sense 
> participation) 
>     I did a post on this today, but it's pretty intense: 
> http://s33light.org/post/33951454539 
> ROGER: I welcome your thoughts on this. But as for myself, I try to keep 
> things as simple as possible.
>     The truth is that actually  I had a serior moment when I wrote 
> "morality".
>     I should have recalled a better term, Ethics. That has to do with 
>     law and doing, both typical of III.    

In my view morality and ethics are manifestation of IV. It is distinct from 
law because it is not a scripted assumption of compliance, it is an 
internalized sensitivity to social considerations which drives law from 
above, rather than a consequence of the existence of a-signifying 
behavioral constraints. This is actually pretty important as it reveals why 
COMP is wrong and AGI will fail without biology.


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