On 12/18/2012 4:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Monday, December 17, 2012 8:02:12 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:

    On 12/17/2012 5:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
    > Taxing the rich does not redistribute the income, it adjusts the
    > expenses so that those who benefit disproportionately from the
    public
    > resources pay their share for an educated labor force, policed
    cities,
    > well maintained roads, bridges, ports, airports, the grotesquely
    > hypertrophied military to enforce monopolistic trade policies
    > worldwide, etc.
    Hi Craig,

         Could explain how it is that it is possible to "proportionally
    benefit" from public resources? Are you saying that resources are the
    natural property of the State and not of those willing to do the
    investment of time and labor to exploit them?


In a democracy, they are the natural property of the taxpayers who pay for their construction and maintenance. The Port of Los Angeles is not the property of Onassis Shipping or whatever. If they are making hand over fist and bring in a dozen more tankers a week - who pays for the extra staffing of that? Who pays for the construction on the port to be upgraded. This is how corporations remain so profitable - privatize profit and socialize cost.
Hi Craig,

We are getting somewhere, but we need to stop and define some terms so we don't just confuse things. What exactly is the definition of "privatize profit and socialize cost" that we can agree upon? "Privatizing profits" seems to mean, in the context of your frame, the funneling of profits into the pockets of a few persons, perhaps undeservedly. "Socializing costs" seems to imply the spreading of costs to arbitrary many people, perhaps undeservedly.

So the key idea, if my interpretation is correct, hinges on the definition of "deservedly" and its opposite, "undeservedly". This seems to point to an idea of "fairness" that remains undefined. DO you care to define a canonical measure of fairness?



         By my logic, if the taxes of the public where taken from
    individual
    people, then the public resources belong proportionately to those
    individuals that paid the taxes. This means that if Fred paid more
    taxes
    than Albert then the public resources belong that much more to
    Fred than
    Albert. Simple math... How do you calculate "benefit"?


It's easy to calculate benefit - you look at the books. You see how much more money a corporation is making and how much more costs are incurred by the government to underwrite that volume of gains.

We need to compare apples to apples here. Governements are only bound, in their cost, by their ability to collect taxes, levies, fees, etc. and can do so with the force of law. Private citizens, or any collective thereof cannot use force unless allowed by the government to do so, so their ability to recoup costs will always be some smaller than the quantity that the government can collect. No? Another way we can look at this is to consider the concept of efficiency. Governments have fewer reasons to consider the efficiency. When you can legally print money out of thin air, the need for efficiency vanishes completely. Private citizens, nor their collectives, can do no such thing!



         I don't understand the collectivization of people into
    equivalence
    classes. Numbers are equivalence classes, not people! I am trying to
    understand your thesis, not saying your wrong. ;-)


I'm open to being wrong, I just need to be pointed in the direction of a reason why that might be the case.

What would be a clear indicator of "Craig being wrong"? You keep shifting the argument frame around. Could you address the questions I asked here now directly?

1) What is fairness?

2) Why does government not do at least what is it supposed to do? Enforce its own laws equally.

--
Onward!

Stephen

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