On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:49:00 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
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> On 23 Apr 2013, at 22:07, Craig Weinberg wrote:
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> On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 5:11:06 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
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>> On 22 Apr 2013, at 19:14, Craig Weinberg wrote:
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>> A quote from someone on Facebook. Any comments?
>>
>> "Computers can only do computations for rational numbers, not for real 
>>> numbers. Every number in a computer is represented as rational. No computer 
>>> can represent pi or any other real number... So even when consciousness can 
>>> be explained by computations, no computer can actually simulate it."
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>> You can represent many real numbers by the program computing their 
>> approximation. You can fan constructively on all real numbers (like the UD 
>> does notably).
>>
>> Only if a brain uses some non computable real number as an oracle, with 
>> all decimals given in one "strike", then we cannot simulate it with Turing 
>> machine, but this needs to make the mind actually infinite.
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> If the mind is what is real, then there are no decimals. 
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> But there are decimal, and so if you are correct, the mind is not real. 
> But the mind is real, so you are not correct.
>

How do you know that the mind uses decimals? It seems that our natural 
understanding is primarily in ratios and real number type concepts. 
Decimals could be a notion derived from stepping down experience through 
the body, but the native experiential fabric of all has no decimal content.


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> The brain is the public representation of the history, and as such, it can 
> only be observed from the reduced 3p set of qualia. The 3p reduction may 
> rationalize the appearance. From an absolute perspective, all phenomena are 
> temporary partitions within the one "strike" of eternity.
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> OK.
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>> So the statement above is just a statement of non-comp, not an argument 
>> for non comp, as it fails to give us what is that non computable real 
>> playing a role in cognition.
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> What does the machine say when we ask it why it can't understand pi 
> without approximating it?
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> One machine can answer "It seems that I can understand PI without 
> approximating it. PI is the ratio of the length of a circle divided by its 
> perimeter, and a circle is the locus of the point in a plane which share 
> the same distance with respect to some point." Then the machine drew a 
> circle on the ground and said, look, it seems PI is about a tiny bigger 
> than 3.
>

Are there any machines that do as we do, and say 'pi is the unchanging 
ratio between the distance across the circle compared to the distance 
around it, and a circle is self evident pattern which manifests literally 
as [circle shape] and figuratively as any pattern of returning to the 
starting point repeatedly.
  

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>> But there is something correct. A computer, nor a brain, can simulate 
>> consciousness. Nor can a computer simlulate the number one, or the number 
>> two. It has to borrow them from arithmetical truth.
>>
>
> Then why would your son in law's computer brain provide him with 
> consciousness? 
>
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> It is not the computer brain which provides him consciousness. The 
> computer brain provides him a way to manifest his consciousness in your 
> restaurant, and to get pleasant qualia of some good food (I hope). What 
> provides the consciousness is God, or (arithmetical) truth. Nobody can 
> program that, in the same sense than nobody can program the number one. But 
> we can write program making possible to manifest the number one, or to make 
> some consciousness manifest relatively to you.
>

Ok, but why assume that it is arithmetical truth which is God rather than 
feeling? Feeling and being are an Art. Doing and knowing are a science. 
Science makes sense as a derivative of art, but art makes no sense as a 
function of science. It isn't necessary, and arithmetic truth is about the 
necessary. Even if we say that arithmetic truth is art, it is certainly 
only one kind of art among many.

If I'm right, and I think I have every reason to guess that I am, then 
arithmetic is a feeling about doing which is one step removed from both 
feeling and moving - a step which can provides a clarity and universality 
that is unavailable in any other form of understanding, but it is precisely 
that precision, that clarity and universality which comes at the cost of 
intimacy with all that feels and does. Arithmetic is detachment from 
physics and psyche, not the source. Multisense realism is the idea that 
your view, the Platonic view, which places arithmetic at the top, or the 
Idealist view which places psyche at the top, or the Materialist view are 
all three valid almost entirely, and that through each of them, a 
self-consistent truthful view of the universe can be validated. Any of 
these three views can be used to explain the other two, but only the view 
which explains all three in terms of sensory-motor participation, aka 
being-doing or sense can explain all three at once without over-signifying 
one and under-signifying the other. God cannot be a number system that has 
feeling, it can only be a feeling that has number systems.

The reason why this is a problem for machines is that it begins from the 
outside and tries to work inward, hoping that 'the rain follows the plow'. 
Our every experience with machines however, be they mere baby machines in 
the scheme of mechanical evolution, are that they are not loving bundles of 
joy and wretched upset. They are not sometimes loving and other times 
aloof. They are not once in a while loving. They are *never* ever emotional 
in any way. Their functions are 100% anesthetic and can be ported to any 
physical medium or aesthetic output. This makes perfect sense to me, since 
living creatures are build themselves from the inside out. The entire 
lifetime of an organism can and should be understood as a single "strike" 
as you say, with each "moment" an episode of relative duration...at the 
moment I am middle aged. At the moment I am 45. At the moment I am living 
in the United States. 

A machine has no such relativistic 'real number' kinds of moments. It has 
discrete instants - clock ticks, program steps...recursive enumerations. 
Computation comes out of counting rather than being or feeling, so that 
using very detailed counting, we can count all of the little aesthetic cues 
which we interpret through our bodies of other people's bodies behaviors 
and infer a skeletal description of the mind. An impressive and useful 
trick, but it is only a description of a generic mind's behaviors in the 
outside world, not an actual reproduction of the feelings which give rise 
to a particular person's mind. It is like those averaged faces 
(http://couscousqueen.tumblr.com/post/48604405522/awkwardsituationist-world-of-averages)
 
- nobody lives behind those faces, but it is not difficult to think that 
someone could.

Craig



> Bruno
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> Craig
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>> Bruno
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