On 27 May 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno:
do you indeed exclude the "other" animals from being selfconcious?
?
No, not at all. My current feeling (for what is worth) is that
consciousness begins with the bacteria, plants and all animals.
And self-consciousness arise already with the invertebrates, like the
cuttle fish, the octopus, some spiders. Of course those animals don't
actually exploits the Löbianity (the self-consciousness level) a lot.
or - having a logic on their own level? Or any other trait we assign
(identify?) for humans - in our terms?
Humans have far more universal layers, and above all, they have
developed languages, and words kill worlds more than bullets. In a
sense the human neocortex is a field of battles between many universal
memes, but then it is nothing compare to the internet tomorrow. You
can see internet as a neo-neo-cortex.
Life can only complexifies, fro the same reason that arithmetic, seen
from inside, is inconceivably complex.
A question about plants (rather: about being conscious):
you may feel free to define 'being conscious' in human terms, or
mammal (etc.) terms, but the "response" plants exude to information
(circumstances, impact. etc.) shows reactivity we may appropriate to
us humans.
So do not deny consciousness from fellow DNA-bearing plants.
No, I am very open to the idea that plant are conscious, but it is so
hard to understand for some people, that I do not insist. I am not
sure if that consciousness "operates" on the same scale as our own.
How about the DNA-not-bearing other creatures? (crystals, stones,
water, impact you may call energy, - whatever?)
Anthropocentric? zoocentric? phitocentric? what-CENTRIC?
Some quasi-cristal perhaps. But keep in mind that I assume comp, so
some computational state must be represented. Without DNA or computer,
there might be entities that we don't detect, and the question begin
to be a trivial "yes", as a material object is a projection of
infinities of computational histories, some involving consciousness.
In comp, besides the numbers, it is not clear in what sense a non
conscious entity, like a physical stone, can "exist" (even if it is
clear why they are apparent to conscious beings). It is difficult.
Comp is universal machine- CENTRIC.
Bruno
JM
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 26 May 2013, at 13:29, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
"The absence of a neocortex does not appear to preclude an organism
from experiencing affective states. Convergent evidence indicates
that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and
neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the
capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors. Consequently, the weight
of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the
neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human
animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures,
including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates."
http://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciousness.pdf
Always a pleasure, if not some relief, to hear that.
My opinion, for what is worth, is that all animals are conscious,
and the one described above are already self-conscious, and
"potentially Löbian" (meaning: like you, me, and Peano Arithmetic).
Are plants conscious? I don't know.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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