As long as the theological question are not taken seriously, the field will remain in the hand of the non serious people. Atheism is a de facto an ally to fundamentalism when ignoring the questions.

Now, in this list I have defined "machine's theology" by the set of arithmetical sentences concerning a machine that the machine cannot justify rationally. In the case of ideally correct machine, this gives the Tarski's notion of truth minus Gödel's provability predicate. And it provides an arithmetical interpretation of Plato or Plotinus, which contains a tetsable physics (making computationalism testable).


I like very much Martin Gardner, and can appreciate some, but not all points, he made in "why I am not an atheist". He is wrong in wanting to separate religion from science, because this is what make religion unsound, and so often abusive of human rights.

Bruno



On 05 Jun 2013, at 15:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Materialism is no joke. Like Dr. Johnson said, I refute it this! What mathematician (Texas) Martin Gardner, once, wrote, is that he like string theory, because behind matter is energy, and behind energy, are strings, and behind strings, and behind numbers, are nothing. This, influenced Gardner's own theology (I never heard it from anyone else) which he called Fidism, or loyalty to the creator. Gardner mused, that if He could think up the numbers once, he could again. I guess Mr. Gardner must have liked this notion? It's a bit like The Book of Nothing, but one of the Everything List's, august, members, Professor, Stannard, jazzed up with a dash of theology. Some people like their math straight up, on the rocks, while others use a twist of theology. I may not be a cosmologist, but I know my mixology.

Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 5, 2013 1:10 am
Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke


On 05 Jun 2013, at 01:33, chris peck wrote:

>> This is a "theorem", once we suppose the mind is Turing emulable.

not actually a theorem if we don't, tho' ?

i don't understand.





More to the point, it might well be that materialism IS a joke. But Roger's attempt to show this is no closer to the mark than Dr. Johnson kicking his stone was to disproving idealism.

OK. And Roger is still a weak materialist, which I often call simply a materialist: that is someone assuming some physics or some primitive matter. But if we are machine, the physical is emergent from + and * in the natural numbers. See my URL for the argument/ proof.




It doesn't follow from the fact that materialists believe only physical things exist that they also think all existence is objective. That is at best a straw man at worst a non-sequiteur. By and large materialists attempt to explain mentality in terms of physical things, not deny that there is mentality. So to point to mentality and say 'there you go, proven materialism false' misses the point big time.


Absolutely. See my papers if you want understand why weak materialism is incompatible with mechanism.

Bruno








> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 13:54:05 +0200
> Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke
> From: te...@telmomenezes.com
> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> >
> > On 04 Jun 2013, at 01:20, Roger Clough wrote:
> >
> > Materialism is a joke
> >
> > Materialism is a view of the universe that claims that the only
> > existence in the universe is physical or objective existence-- that only
> > objects moving in spacetime exist. Which is disproven by the
> > fact that if you understand that definition, you've proven that
> > there is something beyond objective existence -- subjective or
> > mental existence
> >
> >
> > Even weak materialism is a joke, Roger. This is a "theorem", once we suppose
> > the mind is Turing emulable.
> > This makes materialism (the non weak one) even more of a joke.
>
> Is there a possible scenario where the mind is not Turing emulable and
> materialism holds?
>
> Telmo.
>
> > Bruno
> >
> >
> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
>
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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