Yes , Dr. Marchal, this theological aspect does deprive religion of growing up, 
and yes, the militant Atheism does get dangerous, when adhered to government 
edicts. Curiously, and without any evidence, there is a claim by a business 
person, whom as a 13 year old boy, drowned at a swimming pool and experienced 
the whole traditional claims of NDE experiencers/claimers, but believed he 
perceived the creator of the universe, and was way, different, then other 
claims, in that he saw God, not as a person, but "as a machine made of light." 
He further commented that perhaps humans use the term, light, because we have 
no other perception to describe it. Or, perhaps I read a tale from someone with 
a great imagination. Either way, it's basic clinical-ness, I enjoyed. 
Strangely, different, and thus, for me, pleasant. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 5, 2013 9:38 am
Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke


As long as the theological question are not taken seriously, the field will 
remain in the hand of the non serious people. 
Atheism is a de facto an ally to fundamentalism when ignoring the questions.


Now, in this list I have defined "machine's theology" by the set of 
arithmetical sentences concerning a machine that the machine cannot justify 
rationally. In the case of ideally correct machine, this gives the Tarski's 
notion of truth minus Gödel's provability predicate. And it provides an 
arithmetical interpretation of Plato or Plotinus, which contains a tetsable 
physics (making computationalism testable).


I like very much Martin Gardner, and can appreciate some, but not all points, 
he made in "why I am not an atheist". He is wrong in wanting to separate 
religion from science, because this is what make religion unsound, and so often 
abusive of human rights.


Bruno






On 05 Jun 2013, at 15:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


 
Materialism is no joke. Like Dr. Johnson said, I refute it this! What 
mathematician (Texas) Martin Gardner, once, wrote, is that he like string 
theory, because behind matter is energy, and behind energy, are strings, and 
behind strings, and behind  numbers, are nothing. This, influenced Gardner's 
own theology (I never heard it from anyone else) which he called Fidism, or 
loyalty to the creator. Gardner mused, that if He could think up the numbers 
once, he could again. I guess Mr. Gardner must have liked this notion? It's a 
bit like The Book of Nothing, but one of the Everything List's, august, 
members, Professor, Stannard, jazzed up with a dash of theology. Some people 
like their math straight up, on the rocks, while others use a twist of 
theology. I may not be a cosmologist, but I know my mixology.
 
 
 
Mitch
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
 From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
 To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 Sent: Wed, Jun 5, 2013 1:10 am
 Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke
 
 
 

 
 
On 05 Jun 2013, at 01:33, chris peck wrote:
 

 
 
>> This is a "theorem", once we suppose the mind is Turing emulable.
 
 not actually a theorem if we don't, tho' ?
 
 
 
 

 
 
i don't understand. 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
 
 
 

 More to the point, it might well be that materialism IS a joke. But Roger's 
attempt to show this is no closer to the mark than Dr. Johnson kicking his 
stone was to disproving idealism.
 
 
 
 

 
 
OK. And Roger is still a weak materialist, which I often call simply a 
materialist: that is someone assuming some physics or some primitive matter. 
But if we are machine, the physical is emergent from + and * in the natural 
numbers. See my URL for the argument/proof.
 

 
 

 
 
 
 
 

 It doesn't follow from the fact that materialists believe only physical things 
exist that they also think all existence is objective. That is at best a straw 
man at worst a non-sequiteur. By and large materialists attempt to explain 
mentality in terms of physical things, not deny that there is mentality. So to 
point to mentality and say 'there you go, proven materialism false' misses the 
point big time.
 
 
 
 

 
 

 
 
Absolutely. See my papers if you want understand why weak materialism is 
incompatible with mechanism.
 

 
 
Bruno
 

 
 

 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 13:54:05 +0200
 > Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke
 > From: te...@telmomenezes.com
 > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 > 
 > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
 > >
 > > On 04 Jun 2013, at 01:20, Roger Clough wrote:
 > >
 > > Materialism is a joke
 > >
 > > Materialism is a view of the universe that claims that the only
 > > existence in the universe is physical or objective existence--that only
 > > objects moving in spacetime exist. Which is disproven by the
 > > fact that if you understand that definition, you've proven that
 > > there is something beyond objective existence -- subjective or
 > > mental existence
 > >
 > >
 > > Even weak materialism is a joke, Roger. This is a "theorem", once we 
 > > suppose
 > > the mind is Turing emulable.
 > > This makes materialism (the non weak one) even more of a joke.
 > 
 > Is there a possible scenario where the mind is not Turing emulable and
 > materialism holds?
 > 
 > Telmo.
 > 
 > > Bruno
 > >
 > >
 > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > --
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 > > "Everything List" group.
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 > > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
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 > >
 > >
 > 
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 > 
 
 
 
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



 



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