On 05 Jun 2013, at 19:27, [email protected] wrote:
Yes , Dr. Marchal, this theological aspect does deprive religion of
growing up, and yes, the militant Atheism does get dangerous, when
adhered to government edicts. Curiously, and without any evidence,
there is a claim by a business person, whom as a 13 year old boy,
drowned at a swimming pool and experienced the whole traditional
claims of NDE experiencers/claimers, but believed he perceived the
creator of the universe, and was way, different, then other claims,
in that he saw God, not as a person, but "as a machine made of
light." He further commented that perhaps humans use the term,
light, because we have no other perception to describe it. Or,
perhaps I read a tale from someone with a great imagination. Either
way, it's basic clinical-ness, I enjoyed. Strangely, different, and
thus, for me, pleasant.
Interesting. Of course no report of experience can be taken at face
value. We can collect them and search for an explanation. We cannot
dismiss those experiences.
Drugs like salvia and DMT, but also mushrooms can provide more
repeatable experiences, but of course they remained subjective and
private, but we can collect more reports, change the dose, make closer
observation of the "patient".
With comp, interpreting those experience is beyond the manageable
problems, except for that Galois connection (theory/model) which
suggests that brain might be more like a filter of consciousness than
a producer of consciousness. That fits well with some "mystical
experiences" and some other altered consciousness states.
We can only propose theories, and never know if our beliefs are true.
But opposing mysticism and rationality is a mistake, imo. I think they
fit quite well. Like I said in a comment on youtube:
Only bad faith fear science.
Only bad science fear faith.
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jun 5, 2013 9:38 am
Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke
As long as the theological question are not taken seriously, the
field will remain in the hand of the non serious people.
Atheism is a de facto an ally to fundamentalism when ignoring the
questions.
Now, in this list I have defined "machine's theology" by the set of
arithmetical sentences concerning a machine that the machine cannot
justify rationally. In the case of ideally correct machine, this
gives the Tarski's notion of truth minus Gödel's provability
predicate. And it provides an arithmetical interpretation of Plato
or Plotinus, which contains a tetsable physics (making
computationalism testable).
I like very much Martin Gardner, and can appreciate some, but not
all points, he made in "why I am not an atheist". He is wrong in
wanting to separate religion from science, because this is what make
religion unsound, and so often abusive of human rights.
Bruno
On 05 Jun 2013, at 15:27, [email protected] wrote:
Materialism is no joke. Like Dr. Johnson said, I refute it this!
What mathematician (Texas) Martin Gardner, once, wrote, is that he
like string theory, because behind matter is energy, and behind
energy, are strings, and behind strings, and behind numbers, are
nothing. This, influenced Gardner's own theology (I never heard it
from anyone else) which he called Fidism, or loyalty to the
creator. Gardner mused, that if He could think up the numbers once,
he could again. I guess Mr. Gardner must have liked this notion?
It's a bit like The Book of Nothing, but one of the Everything
List's, august, members, Professor, Stannard, jazzed up with a dash
of theology. Some people like their math straight up, on the rocks,
while others use a twist of theology. I may not be a cosmologist,
but I know my mixology.
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jun 5, 2013 1:10 am
Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke
On 05 Jun 2013, at 01:33, chris peck wrote:
>> This is a "theorem", once we suppose the mind is Turing emulable.
not actually a theorem if we don't, tho' ?
i don't understand.
More to the point, it might well be that materialism IS a joke.
But Roger's attempt to show this is no closer to the mark than Dr.
Johnson kicking his stone was to disproving idealism.
OK. And Roger is still a weak materialist, which I often call
simply a materialist: that is someone assuming some physics or some
primitive matter. But if we are machine, the physical is emergent
from + and * in the natural numbers. See my URL for the argument/
proof.
It doesn't follow from the fact that materialists believe only
physical things exist that they also think all existence is
objective. That is at best a straw man at worst a non-sequiteur.
By and large materialists attempt to explain mentality in terms of
physical things, not deny that there is mentality. So to point to
mentality and say 'there you go, proven materialism false' misses
the point big time.
Absolutely. See my papers if you want understand why weak
materialism is incompatible with mechanism.
Bruno
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 13:54:05 +0200
> Subject: Re: Materialism is a joke
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > On 04 Jun 2013, at 01:20, Roger Clough wrote:
> >
> > Materialism is a joke
> >
> > Materialism is a view of the universe that claims that the only
> > existence in the universe is physical or objective existence--
that only
> > objects moving in spacetime exist. Which is disproven by the
> > fact that if you understand that definition, you've proven that
> > there is something beyond objective existence -- subjective or
> > mental existence
> >
> >
> > Even weak materialism is a joke, Roger. This is a "theorem",
once we suppose
> > the mind is Turing emulable.
> > This makes materialism (the non weak one) even more of a joke.
>
> Is there a possible scenario where the mind is not Turing
emulable and
> materialism holds?
>
> Telmo.
>
> > Bruno
> >
> >
> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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