On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> On 14 Sep 2013, at 04:25, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, September 13, 2013 9:42:54 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12 Sep 2013, at 18:22, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, September 12, 2013 11:56:12 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12 Sep 2013, at 11:33, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>
>>> > Time for some philosophy then :)
>>> >
>>> > Here's a paradox that's making me lose sleep:
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexpected_hanging_paradox
>>> >
>>> > Probably many of you already know about it.
>>> >
>>> > What mostly bothers me is the epistemological crisis that this
>>> > introduces. I cannot find a problem with the reasoning, but it's
>>> > clearly false. So I know that I don't know why this reasoning is
>>> > false. Now, how can I know if there are other types of reasoning that
>>> > I don't even know that I don't know that they are correct?
>>>
>>>
>>> Smullyan argues, in Forever Undecided, rather convincingly, that it is
>>> the Epimenides paradox in disguise,
>>
>>
>> It's the symbol grounding problem too. From a purely quantitative
>> perspective, a truth can only satisfy some condition. The expectation of
>> truth being true is not a condition of arithmetic truth, it is a boundary
>> condition that belongs to sense.
>>
>>
>> i think you mix first person truth, that we can sometimes apprehend (like
>> knowing that we are conscious here and now), and third person truth, which
>> does not depend of any entity *sensing* them.
>
>
> How do you justify the assumption of entities that do not depend on any
> phenomenological participation though?
>
>
> That is called "realism". I guess you know I am realist about facts like "14
> is not prime" and the like. We have discussed already on that, and I think,
> agree that we disagree on that.
>
>
>
> Certainly there are truths which are independent of *our* sensing as
> individuals, or as human beings, or as fleshy objects or temporal spans of
> felt experience, but how can we know, or rather why should we jump to
> conclusions that there are things that simply 'are' independently of a
> sensed experience (note I omit 'entity', since it is not clear that an
> experience must be felt by a particular being (it could be felt by a class
> of beings, an era of being, or an eternity of being). Third person truth is
> not anchored in the firmament of fact, it is simply a lowest common
> denominator of sensitivity among all participants.
>
>
> I am OK with this, but as I defined entities from what I am realist about, I
> prefer to make it simple and refer to an arithmetic independent of us.
>
>
>
>
> If third person truth were sense independent, what would be the point of
> having sense actually experienced?
>
>
> The presence of far away galaxies does not depend on us (human beings), but
> we still need sense (Hubble) to acknowledge their existence.

But the precise details of the galaxies may be indeterminate until
someone looks, à la Schrödinger's cat no? Of course with things like
the MWI or FPI "existance" is no longer such a clear term. Or is it?


> How would it create sensation mechanically, and how would whatever is used
> to attach first person phenomena to third person phenomena be itself
> attached to either one?
>
>
> Through two things: self-reference and truth. the first in technically
> manageable, the second is not. But we have both once we assume the
> independent truth of arithmetical relations.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Computers cannot lie intentionally,
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmm... That is your usual anti-mechanist  propaganda.
>
>
> It's not too late to discover a new perspective...
> http://multisenserealism.com/2013/09/12/why-computers-cant-lie-and-dont-know-your-name/
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> they can only report a local truth which is misinterpreted as being false
>> in some sense that is not local to the computation.
>>
>> For the same reason, computers cannot intend to tell the truth either. As
>> in the Chinese Room - the output of a program is not known by the program to
>> be true, it simply is a report of the truth of some internal process.
>>
>>
>> You confuse a person, and a program or body responsible for that person
>> being able to communicate with you (that might explain why you believe a
>> computer cannot think. Of course when we say "a computer can think", with
>> comp we mean only that a computer can have an activity making it possible
>> for a person to think relatively to some universal number/machine.
>
>
> My intuition is to support the use of 'personal' to describe private
> physics, but the word person seems too loaded to me. I am ok with everything
> that I see around me now being 'personal' in some sense, but I do not see
> that every line and curve, every sparkle and shadow arc is a 'person' or
> collection of persons. Also I think that the universal number has no reason
> to feel, but a universal feeling has every reason to count.
>
>
> I know that is what you feel. I have explained why numbers feels this to, as
> the truth here has to be logically counter-intuitive. Young machines have
> hard to believe that they are machines, and eventually this asks for a
> strong philosophical, even theological, bet. That is why "mechanist
> proselytism" is forbidden.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The interesting part is that besides being true locally, the computer's
>> report is also true arithmetically, which is to say that it is true two ways
>> (or senses):
>>
>> 1) the most specific/proprietary sense which is unique, private,
>> instantaneous and local
>> 2) the most universal/generic sense which is promiscuous, public, eternal,
>> and omni-local
>>
>> The computer's report is, however not true in any sense in between, i.e.
>> in any sense which relates specifically to real experienced events in space
>> time.
>>
>> Real events in spacetime (which occur orthogonally through mass-energy, or
>> rather mass-energy is the orthogonal cross section of events) are:
>>
>> 3) semi-unique, semi-private, semi-spatiotemporal, semi-local,
>> semi-specific, semi-universal.
>>
>>
>> I am quite skeptical about "real events in spacetime". I can ascribe a
>> local sense to that, but not an absolute one. I don't buy even weak
>> materialism. It contradicts most things I find much more plausible
>> (consciousness, persons, souls, dreams, monism, ...).
>
>
> I'm trying to make an informal reference without getting too deeply into
> what is meant by real. I agree that spacetime is not absolute - it is the
> polar opposite. Spacetime is the conditional, the local.
>
>
> OK
>
>
> Still though, the point I'm making is that computation is ultra-local and
> ultra-nonlocal, but rather than assuming that it includes every shade in
> between, I think all signs point to the contrary. Quantum jumps, and what it
> is jumping across is 'reality' - accumulated experiences...every shade in
> between. Digital vs analog is a good analog for the real thing, which would
> be more like digital+analog vs {the superpositioned/proto-divergence of all
> experiences}.
>
>
> OK. That fits mechanist theology.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Craig
>
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
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