On Monday, October 21, 2013 7:23:06 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
> On 20 October 2013 12:15, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > On Saturday, October 19, 2013 6:31:23 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: 
> >> 
> >> On 20 October 2013 00:53, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> > Free will is not about an inability to predict your own decisions, it 
> is 
> >> > about a desire to directly dictate perceived conditions, and an 
> >> > expectation 
> >> > of the effectiveness of that desire. 
> >> 
> >> And that too is compatible with randomness or determinism. 
> > 
> > 
> > Only from the retrospective view (from which anything can automatically 
> be 
> > justified). Prospectively, I can think of no plausible reason for any 
> such 
> > desire or expectation to arise from a random or deterministic universe. 
> Why 
> > would it, and how could it? 
> I don't see how that constitutes any sort of argument. Does the fact 
> that every human naturally thinks the Earth is flat mean the Earth is 
> in fact flat, on the grounds that there would otherwise be no reason 
> for such a belief to be so widespread? 

Yes, of course the Earth is flat from a local perspective. Flat enough for 
us to build with levels rather than protractors. If you walked around 
perceiving the curvature of the Earth all the time, you would not be part 
of the experience of the world that all animals share. If you were to 
recreate the universe and failed to include the perception that the world 
is flat, you would have eliminated a huge chunk of its realism, as you 
would if you neglected to include the masking of the night sky by blue sky. 
The only reason that we can accept the world being round is that we can see 
it and model it from a super-human perspective. To say that that 
perspective is absolutely true and the local perspective is an illusion is 
to miss the role that perceptual relativity plays in defining physics.

> Does the fact that every 
> culture has come up with religious beliefs mean God exists? 

No, but it does mean that human consciousness describes itself in Godlike 
terms for a good reason. Once we understand what metaphor is, and how it is 
related to consciousness, then the metaphor of God is recognizable as a 
projection of metaphor and consciousness as a person (a father to be 
precise). A meta-metaphor about meta-superlative personhood. 


> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou 

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