On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2013/12/18 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2013/12/18 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 2013/12/17 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:02 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > On 12/16/2013 12:53 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 5:59 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On 12/15/2013 4:23 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Bruno Marchal
>> >> >> >>> <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> On 14 Dec 2013, at 23:27, LizR wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> I haven't had a chance to watch it, but I do know that banks
>> >> >> >>>> are
>> >> >> >>>> stealing
>> >> >> >>>> our wealth - as indeed are rich people generally, since "wealth
>> >> >> >>>> breeds
>> >> >> >>>> more
>> >> >> >>>> wealth" and that more wealth has to be extracted from you and
>> >> >> >>>> me.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Money and richness is not a problem. It is the blood of the
>> >> >> >>>> social
>> >> >> >>>> system.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Money and richness is a problem only when it is based on lies,
>> >> >> >>>> and
>> >> >> >>>> when
>> >> >> >>>> it
>> >> >> >>>> is used to hide the lies and perpetuate them.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Honest money enrich everybody. True, it is slower for poor, and
>> >> >> >>>> quicker
>> >> >> >>>> for the rich, but when people play the game "honestly",
>> >> >> >>>> everyone
>> >> >> >>>> win,
>> >> >> >>>> and
>> >> >> >>>> poverty regress.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> In a working economy, there are few poor. Presence of poverty
>> >> >> >>>> means
>> >> >> >>>> that
>> >> >> >>>> there are stealers and bandits (or war or catastrophes).
>> >> >> >>>> Accusing
>> >> >> >>>> the
>> >> >> >>>> system
>> >> >> >>>> and money itself is all benefices for the bandits. It dilutes
>> >> >> >>>> their
>> >> >> >>>> responsibility and wrong-doing in the abstract. It helps them
>> >> >> >>>> to
>> >> >> >>>> feel
>> >> >> >>>> like
>> >> >> >>>> not guilty.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> As I said, criticizing the economical system is like
>> >> >> >>>> attributing
>> >> >> >>>> to
>> >> >> >>>> the
>> >> >> >>>> blood cells the responsibility of some tumor since the blood
>> >> >> >>>> cells
>> >> >> >>>> feeds
>> >> >> >>>> it.
>> >> >> >>>> It hides the real root of the problem, and focus on the wrong
>> >> >> >>>> target.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I agree, unsurprisingly. :)
>> >> >> >>> I also agree with Liz, in that it is clear who is stealing the
>> >> >> >>> money.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> The "rich get richer" is a very fundamental phenomenon. Even if
>> >> >> >>> we
>> >> >> >>> remove
>> >> >> >>> money from society, it will still happen because it also applies
>> >> >> >>> to
>> >> >> >>> social
>> >> >> >>> interactions. The more friends and alliances you have, the more
>> >> >> >>> likely
>> >> >> >>> you
>> >> >> >>> are to get new ones. This is the reason why every entrepreneur
>> >> >> >>> seeks
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> allegiance of celebrities. It's a more subtle form of currency.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> However, we got trapped into a system that effectively amplifies
>> >> >> >>> "rich
>> >> >> >>> get
>> >> >> >>> richer" dynamics. This system is central banking -- since the
>> >> >> >>> powerful
>> >> >> >>> have
>> >> >> >>> the capacity to issue fiat money in the form of debt, two things
>> >> >> >>> happen:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> It doesn't take central banking to make the rich get richer.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Yes, that is what I said. My claim is that central banking
>> >> >> >> amplifies
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> effect.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Ever since
>> >> >> >>> civilization began the rich have been able to get richer just by
>> >> >> >>> owning
>> >> >> >>> stuff. For a couple of millenia it was owning land.  If you
>> >> >> >>> owned
>> >> >> >>> land
>> >> >> >>> then
>> >> >> >>> serfs and peasants had to pay you for working the land.  Then
>> >> >> >>> merchantilism
>> >> >> >>> added ships to what you could own.  Then industrialization added
>> >> >> >>> mines
>> >> >> >>> and
>> >> >> >>> oil and factories.  Banking and insurance added financial
>> >> >> >>> instruments
>> >> >> >>> that
>> >> >> >>> you could own.  But it's all of a piece.  If you own stuff that
>> >> >> >>> you
>> >> >> >>> can
>> >> >> >>> rent/lend you're rich and you can get richer.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> But central banks can print new money. This new money is lent.
>> >> >> >> The
>> >> >> >> more money you have, the more new money the banking system will
>> >> >> >> lend
>> >> >> >> to you. Thus the amplification. Also, the marginal value of money
>> >> >> >> decreases the more you have, so this devaluation and speculation
>> >> >> >> with
>> >> >> >> new money exposes the poor to more risk, while they don't
>> >> >> >> actually
>> >> >> >> have access to the investment opportunities that the rich have.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You always refer to "central" banks.  But all banks always did
>> >> >> > this.
>> >> >> > The
>> >> >> > bank would take 1M$ in deposits and then make 10M$ in loans,
>> >> >> > depending
>> >> >> > on
>> >> >> > the fact that statistically only a few depositors would ask for
>> >> >> > their
>> >> >> > money
>> >> >> > at any one time.  So they collected interest on 10M$ while only
>> >> >> > having
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > pay interest on 1M$ (if at all).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I agree. It is interesting to notice that it is highly illegal if a
>> >> >> private citizen does this, but it is the business model of modern
>> >> >> banks. An advantage of bitcoin is that it removes the need for the
>> >> >> bank as a storage facility.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Bitcoin is not a solution,
>> >>
>> >> Depends on the problem you're considering, I think it can lead to a
>> >> society with more individual freedoms, for example.
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't think it can... can you give argument how bitcoin would achieve
>> > that
>> > ?
>>
>> Ask the people who had money from their bank accounts confiscated in
>> Cyprus.
>
>
> It doesn't explain how bitcoin would give more freedom...

So you are arguing that governments do not impose any restrictions on
monetary transactions with fiat currency?

> it will certainly
> give an insane amount of wealth (without any work done, only
> """""mining""""" when it was easy to do) to early adopters if it ever stick
> around, that's the only thing sure.

Well, if it sticks around it will be because a lot of people are
benefiting from it, because participation is voluntary.

>>
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > the first to use the system get richer as the
>> >> > system is adopted in time...
>> >>
>> >> Yes they do.
>> >
>> >
>> > A system that enrich its creator cannot be good.
>>
>> Ok. I don't share this ideology.
>
>
> So you think it is normal, early adopters to get an insane amount of wealth
> just because they created the moneytary system ? It's sure we don't share
> our ideology.

Ok so what do you propose? Bitcoins should be made illegal?

>>
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > new comers don't get a share to enter, they
>> >>
>> >> They can work for bitcoins in a number of ways already.
>> >
>> >
>> > What a joke... bitcoins were fast to mine at the beginning, not now,
>> > giving
>> > an unfair amount of them to early adopters.
>>
>> I cannot think of a single concept that introduced more violence and
>> misery into the world than the pursuit of "fairness",
>
>
> Current capitalist system ?

No, I don't think so.

>>
>> to be determined
>> by some enlightened minority. I would much rather have non-coercion,
>> and bitcoin provides that. You are free to participate in the market
>> or not, and you are free to change your mind at any point.
>>
>> >>
>> >> The more this
>> >> is possible, the more bitcoin will have succeeded in replacing
>> >> conventional currencies
>> >
>> >
>> > Being deflationnist, it can only be adopted by speculator... you won't
>> > buy a
>> > pizza with a money that double its value in one month (or lose it
>> > because of
>> > that speculation).
>>
>> Deflation is not a binary proposition. You can have a lot of it or a
>> little of it.
>
>
> Bitcoin is a lot of it, if the system stick, as the number of bitcoin is
> limited, an insane amount of wealth will be confiscated by early adopters
> through deflation... it's crazy to accept such a thing.

Well, then don't. Nobody is forcing you.

Telmo.

> Quentin
>
>>
>> The hope of the proponents of bitcoin is that it will
>> become more and more stable as it grows. Of course it's in the
>> speculative phase now, but it cannot possibly keep doubling in value
>> every few months forever.
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> . Some stores and cafes around my neighbourhood
>> >> in Berlin already accept them.
>> >>
>> >> For newcomers to get a share to enter would require precisely the type
>> >> of central control that Bitcoin hopes to replace.
>> >
>> >
>> > An economic system unfair to new comers cannot be a good economic
>> > system,
>> > why replace the one we have now with something that's not better in that
>> > respect.
>>
>> Unfair according to your ideas of fairness. Bitcoin is a benevolent
>> idea, because you are not forced to participate if you feel that way.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Mining is more
>> >> elegant.
>> >
>> >
>> > It's BS...
>>
>> Ok then, I guess...
>>
>> >>
>> >> It provides an incentive for early adopters, which are badly
>> >> needed in the beginning, and then it gets progressively harder.
>> >>
>> >> > have to buy it with external real accepted currency...
>> >>
>> >> Is there any reasonable criteria for a currency being "real and
>> >> accepted" beyond the existence of a market where people are willing to
>> >> trade with it?
>> >>
>> >> > it does more looks
>> >> > like a con system, than a faithful replacement to fiat money.
>> >>
>> >> Bitcoin was created by the release of a paper that describes the
>> >> system.
>> >
>> >
>> > I know the system, it's a con system, and only used for speculation and
>> > money laundering... if you buy coffee with it instead of speculate with
>> > it
>> > you must be very *special*.
>>
>>
>> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/apr/26/bitcoins-gain-currency-in-berlin
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Anyone could learn all the details from the beginning and
>> >> decide if they want to enter the market or not. It could be a con if
>> >> the creators didn't believe it would work in the long term. Even if
>> >> they didn't, it doesn't really matter. It only matters if it works or
>> >> not.
>> >>
>> >> > Plus bitcoin is inherently deflationist...
>> >>
>> >> On purpose.
>> >
>> >
>> > That leads people to keep their money, and no investment... it only
>> > works
>> > now because of speculation.
>>
>> Maybe. I don't know the future and you don't either.
>>
>> Telmo.
>>
>> > Quentin
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Some people, like me, believe this could be a better model
>> >> for society. With a completely free currency market, deflation could
>> >> lead to technological evolution actually freeing mankind from unwanted
>> >> work.
>> >>
>> >> The beauty of systems like bitcoin is that nobody can decide or impose
>> >> anything. They will succeed or fail on their own merits. Isn't it good
>> >> that the experiment is being made?
>> >>
>> >> Telmo.
>> >>
>> >> > Quentin
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It will still be useful to have security
>> >> >> experts providing safe wallets, but they will not be able to behave
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> banks and lend your money.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We already have pear to pear lending, although it is illegal in many
>> >> >> places. Again, with bitcoin, it will be very hard to regulate
>> >> >> against
>> >> >> such behaviours, and I think that is a good thing.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The current situation is very unfair. We need banks to store our
>> >> >> money, and they get to invest it in ways that we are not allowed.
>> >> >> Then, we don't get any of the profit the bank generates from our own
>> >> >> money. This also amplifies "rich get richer" dynamics.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Of course this occasionally resulted in
>> >> >> > "runs" on banks and consequence failure of the bank.  Central
>> >> >> > banks
>> >> >> > were
>> >> >> > set
>> >> >> > up as part of a system to regulate this.  The central bank insures
>> >> >> > deposits,
>> >> >> > but also the same regulatory system limits the discount rate, i.e.
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > amount of money a bank has to have as a fraction of what it can
>> >> >> > loan.
>> >> >> > So
>> >> >> > Central banks exist to *limit* the "printing" of money.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I guess you buy into the narratives of power more easily than I do.
>> >> >> We
>> >> >> have different personalities in that regard. Maybe you're right, but
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> don't think you are.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What I observe is that central banks control the supply of money and
>> >> >> the price of money. This is bound to create an elite that has
>> >> >> incredible power over the rest of us, including power over
>> >> >> governments.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who
>> >> >> writes
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> laws."
>> >> >> - Mayer Amschel Rothschild
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A simple, straightforward solution in terms of regulation would be
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> forbid fractional-reserve banking by default. No central banking
>> >> >> needed. If banks wanted to loan my money, then they would need my
>> >> >> agreement and they would need to share the profits, and I would
>> >> >> share
>> >> >> the risk. But this is never on the table.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the same vein that politicians tell us that bailing out the big
>> >> >> banks is unfair but unavoidable, but they never comment on why not
>> >> >> bail out the people who's lives have been destroyed by the banks,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> who payed the taxes that make the bailout possible in the first
>> >> >> place.
>> >> >> Again, never on the table.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > And the policy is generally adjusted to try produce small, but
>> >> >> > positive
>> >> >> > inflation.  This is because deflation is considered unstable.
>> >> >> > Inflation
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > stable and encourages investment because just holding money loses
>> >> >> > value.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yup, it's the current dogma. Infinite growth. I would argue that if
>> >> >> you want to cut CO2 emissions, this would be a good place to start.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>   Of course you can also
>> >> >> >>> influence government and governments exist largely to protect
>> >> >> >>> your
>> >> >> >>> property
>> >> >> >>> rights.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> - The money I have in my pocket is not safe. They can devalue it
>> >> >> >>> and
>> >> >> >>> there
>> >> >> >>> is nothing I can do about it. They have a strong incentive to
>> >> >> >>> devalue
>> >> >> >>> my
>> >> >> >>> money because they can give the new money they created to their
>> >> >> >>> allies,
>> >> >> >>> through sophisticated mechanisms. It is very cleverly disguised,
>> >> >> >>> but
>> >> >> >>> it's
>> >> >> >>> still plain old theft;
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> That means you have a strong incentive to invest/spend your
>> >> >> >>> money.
>> >> >> >>> And
>> >> >> >>> that
>> >> >> >>> applies also to a rich person that has a lot of money -
>> >> >> >>> inflation
>> >> >> >>> encourages
>> >> >> >>> him to spend it on something.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Right, and this prevents the bulk of the population from escaping
>> >> >> >> wage
>> >> >> >> slavery even though technology could replace labour.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The reason technology doesn't allow them to escape is that they
>> >> >> > generally
>> >> >> > can't buy the technology to replace their labor.  When they can,
>> >> >> > as
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > example farmers do by buying tractors, cultivators, etc, then they
>> >> >> > replace
>> >> >> > the laborers they would otherwise employ. This causes the latter
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > escape
>> >> >> > wage slavery by being unemployed.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> True, but in other models, like the deflationary model implied by
>> >> >> bitcoin, as the need for human labour contracts, the fees for the
>> >> >> remaining that is necessary increases (in a free market). A good
>> >> >> direction for society would be to reduce the amount of years one has
>> >> >> to work to pay for one's life. Imagine the deal: maybe society
>> >> >> doesn't
>> >> >> really need any more physicists urgently, but maybe it needs
>> >> >> plumbers.
>> >> >> What if you could work as a plumber for 5 years and then spend the
>> >> >> rest of you life pursuing your own interests? I don't see why we
>> >> >> couldn't create a system with this type of incentive, except that
>> >> >> it's
>> >> >> never on the table. Democracy provided for a very limited menu.
>> >> >> Sometimes there's a special, but unlike nice restaurants, you get
>> >> >> last
>> >> >> week's meal with some food colouring to pretend it's lobster
>> >> >> casserole.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> So one of the reasons for the current
>> >> >> >>> recession is that wealth is very concentrated by inflation is
>> >> >> >>> quite
>> >> >> >>> low,
>> >> >> >>> so
>> >> >> >>> corporations and wealthy persons are not motivated to take much
>> >> >> >>> risk
>> >> >> >>> on
>> >> >> >>> investing their money; they can easily wait and see.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I would argue that a deeper reason is that technology made many
>> >> >> >> jobs
>> >> >> >> disappear, but the inflationary economic system we live under
>> >> >> >> cannot
>> >> >> >> accommodate that.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I'd say it accommodates that just fine from an economics
>> >> >> > standpoint.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If it did we would need to work less years to pay for our lives.
>> >> >> Instead, we have to work more and get less money for it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > In the
>> >> >> > U.S. the recession only lasted a year after the mortgage crisis;
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > GDP
>> >> >> > started back up.  BUT unemployment has remained high for three
>> >> >> > years.
>> >> >> > And I
>> >> >> > think you are right that technology is a good part of the reason
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > that.
>> >> >> > But the other part is just because many are unemployed and many
>> >> >> > more
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > concerned about their economic security, consumer spending is low.
>> >> >> > The
>> >> >> > rich
>> >> >> > won't invest in making stuff if they think it will be hard to sell
>> >> >> > it.
>> >> >> > So
>> >> >> > there's a negative feedback - deflationary instability.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> - The more wealthy, who can invest, can leverage their
>> >> >> >>> investments
>> >> >> >>> by
>> >> >> >>> orders
>> >> >> >>> of greatness. The more money you have, the more you can leverage
>> >> >> >>> it
>> >> >> >>> (by
>> >> >> >>> effectively creating new "fake" money). The poor are the most
>> >> >> >>> vulnerable
>> >> >> >>> to
>> >> >> >>> the inevitable systemic collapse that a debt-based economy will
>> >> >> >>> create.
>> >> >> >>> The
>> >> >> >>> poor implicitly risk their homes and means of survival when the
>> >> >> >>> rich
>> >> >> >>> play
>> >> >> >>> the big casino game of leveraged investments, derivative markets
>> >> >> >>> and
>> >> >> >>> so
>> >> >> >>> on.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> But that money isn't fake.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Yes, maybe a better word is stolen, because it was created by
>> >> >> >> diluting
>> >> >> >> the value of the money in people's banks accounts, but it is then
>> >> >> >> given to other people.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> The poor may lose their home which has real
>> >> >> >>> value.  And even if they don't lose their home they end up
>> >> >> >>> paying
>> >> >> >>> excessively for the money they borrowed to buy it - that's real
>> >> >> >>> labor
>> >> >> >>> value.
>> >> >> >>> The rich gain real money, not just fake.  All over Southern
>> >> >> >>> California
>> >> >> >>> houses whose value dropped and are threatened with foreclosure
>> >> >> >>> are
>> >> >> >>> being
>> >> >> >>> bought up for cash.  It's not poor people who can pay $500,000
>> >> >> >>> in
>> >> >> >>> cash
>> >> >> >>> for a
>> >> >> >>> house.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Bitcoin might solve these two problems.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Naah.  It's just another medium of exchange.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Unlike the existing mediums of exchange after the end of the gold
>> >> >> >> standard, a central authority cannot issue more bitcoins.
>> >> >> >> Bitcoins
>> >> >> >> can
>> >> >> >> only be produced by mining, with a predictable and increasing
>> >> >> >> computational effort, and up to a certain amount. So in some
>> >> >> >> point
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> the future the last bitcoin will be mined, and that's it. If I
>> >> >> >> own a
>> >> >> >> bitcoin right now, I do not have to fear that it will get
>> >> >> >> devalued
>> >> >> >> by
>> >> >> >> political decisions. Also, it is not possible for a bank to lend
>> >> >> >> bitcoin that it doesn't own or that were lend to it, so there is
>> >> >> >> no
>> >> >> >> amplification effect.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That's like going on a gold standard.  There's only so much gold.
>> >> >> > Which
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > both an advantage, in that is prevents inflation devaluing the
>> >> >> > gold,
>> >> >> > but
>> >> >> > also a disadvantage in that there's not enough to support the
>> >> >> > level
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > international trade.  But ultimately trade depends on trust in the
>> >> >> > system.
>> >> >> > There's nothing to prevent a bank that owns 1M bitcoins from
>> >> >> > lending
>> >> >> > 10M
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > bitcoin value.  It's all numbers in ledgers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With bitcoin, why would I risk my money with fractional-reserve
>> >> >> banking when I can store it myself with some strong cryptography,
>> >> >> including backups in services that are much cheaper than banks and
>> >> >> gain no control over it?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I'm not saying that Bitcoin is a silver bullet that will solve
>> >> >> >> all
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> the problems, but I find it hard to argue that it does not
>> >> >> >> prevent
>> >> >> >> inflation by the actions of central authorities and that it does
>> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> prevent the ability of the rich to leverage their investments by
>> >> >> >> 1000x
>> >> >> >> like they can do in derivative markets with fiat currency.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>   Whoever owns a lot of stuff
>> >> >> >>> will still be able to use it to get more -
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Yes, this is true even without money, as I said before.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> without actually producing the
>> >> >> >>> extra value, rather by taking it from those who have little.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> One advantage of having rich people is that they can tolerate
>> >> >> >> more
>> >> >> >> risk. This allows for the allocation of resources to speculative
>> >> >> >> ideas
>> >> >> >> that could improve everyone's lives in the future.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That's fine and companies like H-P and Apple and Google were
>> >> >> > started
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > way.  But some enterprises are too big and risky for private
>> >> >> > investors.
>> >> >> > So
>> >> >> > satellites, vaccination, GPS, the internet, radar,...were
>> >> >> > underwritten
>> >> >> > by
>> >> >> > government investment.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's hard for me to argue against this because it's circular. The
>> >> >> private sector is not allowed to do certain things under free
>> >> >> competition (as is he case with communications and health care), and
>> >> >> then people argue that the government is needed to do these things.
>> >> >> Maybe you're right, but we don't really know. I think it's worth a
>> >> >> try, but that is not on the table. Also, notice that all of the
>> >> >> above-mentioned innovations were motivated by increasing military
>> >> >> power. Then they had nice externalities for the general population,
>> >> >> but I very much doubt that the government would care if it weren't
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> the military applications. I would rather have a slower pace of
>> >> >> innovation and no wars.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > The problem with rich people is many just inherited their wealth
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > then
>> >> >> > they grow it just by "renting" it, without contributing anything
>> >> >> > actively.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I agree, this is a problem. However, I cannot think of any way to
>> >> >> fix
>> >> >> it that doesn't introduce even more unfairness (because it doesn't
>> >> >> matter what regulations you come up with, a lot of money will buy
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> a way around them). You see this with taxes, where the power
>> >> >> narrative
>> >> >> is social fairness but the reality is that the middle class ends up
>> >> >> paying all of them.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I always find it fascinating when a candidate for the U.S.
>> >> >> > Presidency
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > asked about his wealth (and most of them are wealthy).  He
>> >> >> > generally
>> >> >> > disclaims any knowledge of how it is managed and says he has put
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > in a
>> >> >> > blind trust.  This always raises the question in my mind, "If
>> >> >> > you're
>> >> >> > not
>> >> >> > even managing the money (and you probably haven't for years) why
>> >> >> > should
>> >> >> > any
>> >> >> > of the proceeds go to you?  It's just money earning money."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is similar to the height of the Roman Empire. I think there are
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> lot of similarities between the US and the Roman Empire, especially
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> their respective transitions from Republic to Empire.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."
>> >> >> -- Mark Twain
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Telmo.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Brent
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
>> >> > Batty/Rutger Hauer)
>> >> >
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>> >
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>> > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
>> > Batty/Rutger Hauer)
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>
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> --
> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
> Batty/Rutger Hauer)
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