On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Great! An amazing post! You seem to have correctly gotten part of the
> theory I proposed in my separate topic "Another stab at how spacetime
> emerges from quantum events." Please refer to that topic to confirm...
>
> Do you understand how the fact that the spins are determined in the frames
> of the spinning particles WHEN they are created falsifies FTL and
> non-locality?
>
> Edgar
>
>
> But It<Bit, a theory proposed by Wheeler, predicts that in the
intermediate phase between observations,
the properties of the particle vanish, as if the particle vanished down a
ER=EPR wormhole tunnel,
perhaps to a more abstract plane of consciousness or a higher world among
many.

It<Bit is a Many World Theory (MWT).
Richard

>
> On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 2:21:33 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 4:33 AM, LizR <liz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1 January 2014 21:34, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  On 12/31/2013 7:22 PM, LizR wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  On 1 January 2014 13:54, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Of course in Hilbert space there's no FTL because the system is just
>>>>> one point and when a measurement is performed it projects the system ray
>>>>> onto a mixture of subspaces; spacetime coordinates are just some labels.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I thought there was no FTL in ordinary space, either? (I mean, none
>>>> required for the MWI?)
>>>>
>>>> Right, but the state in Hilbert space is something like |x1 y1 z1 s1 x2
>>>> y2 z2 s2> and when Alice measures s1 at (x1 y1 z1) then s2 is correlated at
>>>> (x2 y2 z2).  As I understand it the MWI advocates say this isn't FTL
>>>> because this is just selecting out one of infinitely many results |s1 s2>.
>>>> But the 'selection' has to pair up the spins in a way that violates Bell's
>>>> inequality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If I understand correctly ... actually, let me just check if I do,
>>> before I go any further, in case I'm talking out my arse. Which wouldn't be
>>> the first time.
>>>
>>> I assume we're talking about an EPR correlation here?
>>>
>>> If yes, I've never understood how the MWI explains this.
>>>
>>
>> The thing to remember is entanglement is the same thing as measurement.
>>  The entangled pair of particles have measured each other, but they remain
>> isolated from the rest of the environment (and thus in a superposition, of
>> say UD and DU). Once you as an observer measure either of the two
>> particles, you have by extension measured both of them, since the position,
>> which you measured has already measured the electron, and now you are
>> entangled in their superposition.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>>  I've see it explained with ASCII diagrams by Bill Taylor on the FOAR
>>> forum, and far be it from me to quibble with Bill, but it never made sense
>>> to me. Somehow, the various branches just join up correctly...
>>>
>>> The only explanation I've come across that I really understand for EPR,
>>> and that doesn't violate locality etc is the time symmetry one, where all
>>> influences travel along the light cone, but are allowed to go either way in
>>> time.
>>>
>>> So although I quite like the MWI because of its ontological
>>> implications, this is one point on which I am agnostic, because I don't
>>> understand the explanation.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      In fact, it's generally assumed to be very, very STL (unless
>>>>> light itself is involved). At great distances from the laboratory, one
>>>>> imagines that the superposition caused by whatever we might do to cats in
>>>>> boxes would decay to the level of noise, and fail to spread any further.
>>>>>
>>>>>  That's an interesting viewpoint - but it's taking spacetime instead
>>>>> of Hilbert space to be the arena.  If we take the cat, either alive or
>>>>> dead, and shoot it off into space then, as a signal, it won't fall off as
>>>>> 1/r^2.
>>>>>
>>>>>  No, but it will travel STL!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure.  I was just commenting on the idea that the entanglement has a
>>>> kind of limited range because of 'background noise'.  An interesting idea,
>>>> similar to one I've had that there is a smallest non-zero probability.
>>>>
>>>> But if you want to get FTL, that's possible if Alice and Bob are near
>>>> opposite sides of our Hubble sphere when they do their measurements.  They
>>>> are then already moving apart faster than c and will never be able to
>>>> communicate - with each other, but we, in the middle will eventually
>>>> receive reports from them so that we can confirm the violation of Bell's
>>>> inequality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm, that's a good point. That would, however, fit in nicely with time
>>> symmetry (which really needs a nice acronym, I'm not sure "TS" cuts it). I
>>> tend to evangelise a bit on time symmetry, but only because everyone else
>>> roundly ignores it, and it seems to me that it at least has potential.
>>>
>>>
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