On 12/31/2013 9:54 AM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 12:12 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com
    <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:

        > There are at least two possible answers to the bell inequalities:
        1. Nonlocal influences


     There are not "at least two" there are exactly two, but yes, things might 
not be local.

        >2. Mutliple outcomes for each measurement


    Yes, things might not be realistic. We know that at best one of those 2 
commonplace
    assumptions is wrong, at worse both are.

        > If you choose 2, then you don't need 1.


    Yes, but locality OR realism OR both must be wrong.

            >> But MWI could be true because although it is realistic it is not 
local.


        > It is local,


    I sorta like the MWI but apparently you are not a fan because if what you 
say is
    true then the MWI is dead wrong.


Explain why the following table shows that MWI is local, and realistic on the wave function and universal wave function:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics#Comparison_of_interpretations


The Wikipedia reference:


 Locality in the Everett Interpretation of Heisenberg-Picture Quantum Mechanics

Mark A. Rubin <http://arxiv.org/find/quant-ph/1/au:+Rubin_M/0/1/0/all/0/1>
(Submitted on 14 Mar 2001 (v1 <http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0103079v1>), last revised 10 May 2001 (this version, v2))

   Bell's theorem depends crucially on counterfactual reasoning, and is 
mistakenly
   interpreted as ruling out a local explanation for the correlations which can 
be
   observed between the results of measurements performed on 
spatially-separated quantum
   systems. But in fact the Everett interpretation of quantum mechanics, in the
   Heisenberg picture, provides an alternative local explanation for such 
correlations.
   Measurement-type interactions lead, not to many worlds but, rather, to many 
local
   copies of experimental systems and the observers who measure their 
properties.
   Transformations of the Heisenberg-picture operators corresponding to the 
properties of
   these systems and observers, induced by measurement interactions, "label" 
each copy
   and provide the mechanism which, e.g., ensures that each copy of one of the 
observers
   in an EPRB or GHZM experiment will only interact with the "correct" copy of 
the other
   observer(s). The conceptual problem of nonlocality is thus replaced with a 
conceptual
   problem of proliferating labels, as correlated systems and observers undergo
   measurement-type interactions with newly-encountered objects and 
instruments; it is
   suggested that this problem may be resolved by considering quantum field 
theory rather
than the quantum mechanics of particles.
Comments:       18 pages, no figures. Minor changes
Subjects:       Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
Journal reference:      Found. Phys. Lett. 14 (2001) 301-322
Report number:  WW-10184
Cite as:        arXiv:quant-ph/0103079 <http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0103079>


just moves the problem from FTL signaling to FTL labeling.


Jason

    We already know MWI is realistic and ANY theory that is both realistic AND 
local can
    NOT be consistent with experiment. And if experiment says that's not the 
way things
    are then that's just not the way things are.

        > You can have multiple outcomes for a measurement and realism.


    No you can not because that's not what physicists mean when they use the 
word
    "realistic", they mean that a wave or a particle possesses one specific 
attribute
    even if it has not been measured.


That is hidden variable. There cannot be a single hidden value but there can be multiple real values. Hidden variables are something different from realism, which is a reality independent of measurement or observation.

Perhaps that is the only thing we are arguing over. Definitions. What you say seems correct to me if what you call reality is things possess "single-valued hidden variables".

    For example, if a photon already has one specific  polarization even before 
its
    quantum entangled twin has been measured then it is realistic.


It has many specific polarizations before it is measured.

        > Locality has a specific definition in physics,


    Yes.

        > that things are only affected by other things (fields or particles) 
in direct
        proximity to each other.


    Once a universe has split off it can have no effect on us whatsoever nor us 
to it.
    And someplace that the laws of physics forbid us from going to or seeing is 
not in
    our "direct proximity".


The whole universe doesn't split off, rather superpositions spread from particle to particle at sub-light speeds.

See the answer to Question 12: 
http://www.anthropic-principle.com/preprints/manyworlds.html

This is a non-answer. The wave-equation lives in Hilbert space, not spacetime. So a single point in the Hilbert space of a pair of particles has six space coordinate variables.

Brent



        > It says nothing about the existence of places we can or can't go to.


    It most certainly does! If a event is not even in our past or future 
spacetime
    lightcone then it is not local, and no event in another universe is within 
our
    lightcone.


By this definition, the existence of light cones or things outside would make special relativity non-local, but it is not. A theory is only non-local if something outside your past light cone could affect you, or if you could affect things outside your future light cone. This is not the case in special relativity, and it's not the case in Everett's theory.

Jason


      John K Clark

















    It says nothing about the existence of places we can or can't go to.

    Jason

      John K Clark










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