On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote:




On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Paul King <stephe...@provensecure.com > wrote:
Hi Jason,

  Could be... convalescing from the flu.... I will try to reply...



Thanks Stephen. I hope you feel better soon.



Maybe it is out minds that focus so much on the invariant, misses the obvious.



The fact is that we are asking questions about things we are trying to understand.

Right, that is good.

Merely stating that this is that ignores the point.

Isn't that how explanations work?

Where doth change emerge if it does not exist at all?

It emerges in our minds, just like colors, sounds, emotions, etc. There is a condition known as akinetopsia in which its suffers lose the ability to experience time (at least as we do). They experience the world as a series of static snapshots, without conception of time or motion. One woman expressed her trouble with crossing the street, and pouring a cup of tea, since she couldn't tell which cars were moving or stopped, and when pouring tea it seemed frozen like a glacier. You might consider this as some evidence that we owe our perception of change to some extra layer of processing done by our brain.

All of that is true but requires at least some 1p that perceives the change. I am suggesting that 1p and change go together, can't have one without the other.

Okay, and I can agree with this in some respects. If the first person view is the view of a computation, then the computation has an ordered sequence of states. Although Bruno has also claimed to have had a conscious experience without time. Maybe this is the result of some computation stuck in a loop? I'd be interested in hearing his own thoughts on it.

Hmm.... Normally we are not supposed to refer to personal experience, but once in a while ... Why not. Of course you allude here to a statement I made concerning some salvia experiences.

Note that some people dismisses non validly such experience, *even from the 1p view*, because they think it is an hallucination ... and that's all.

I have recently succeeded, by using a metaphor, in explaining, that from the 1p point of of view, an experience can lead to a genuine change of view, and invalidate the dismissive tenet for the 1p view.

Imagine a world where everyone see on the black and white. No colors. Imagine that in that world, some people using some drugs do perceive color. Then when they come back they try to explain the experience, and of course, as the experience is short elusive and does not allow testing, they cannot do so. Yet in that case we can understand that dismissing such experience as an hallucination is in direct opposition with the experience itself, from the 1p view. They do have lived something that they were unable to conceive before the experience. There is a genuine learning or discovery.

That is like I feel after some salvia experience, notably concerning the experience of timeless consciousness. I would have swore that such an experience cannot make any sense, even in an hallucination, yet, with some amount of salvia, the experience does make some sense, but remains 1p and completely impossible to described.

Can it be a computational loop? Not really because this will still be lived as dynamical by the 1p, unless perhaps the loop is infinitesimal: hard to say. Or is it that consciousness doesn't really need a time frame to be experienced? That contradict apparently the S4Grz (third hypostase, the arithmetical 1p) which, like in Brouwer's theory of consciousness, links deeply consciousness and subjective time (knowledge evolution).

So: I don't know. I don't even know how to refer to such an experience which is out of time. Its duration seems to last both 0 seconds, and eternity, after. It just looks totally impossible ... in the mundane state of consciousness. It seems impossible, even as an hallucination. It boggles me in the infinite. It does give a sort of feeling that arithmetical truth might be a sort of conscious 'person' after all, and that comp might be even more closer to "religion" than what the simple machine's theology can suggest. Maybe that is why some people says that salvia is a medication which cures ... atheism. It does not make you believe in something, but, like comp+ logic, it seems to generalize the dream argument, that is a root for doubting even more (and that is probably why most people find salvia quite disturbing and decide to never do it again). I need further explorations ...

Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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