Stathis and List: from time to time it is useful to recall what we are thinking behind 'words'. Is the *'brain'* as used in this exchange indeed* 'brainfunction'*? (ref. to "functionalism vs computationalism") To 'preserve *mind*' begs the question how it is differentiated in this exchange? Then again* 'intelligence'* is a flexible item (I start from "inter" - "lego" = to read between the lines, not to stick to the (written?) words proper). The *'non-computable physics'* in Penrose's brain begs the question: *"STILL" or "NOT AT ALL"?* Is the acceptance of the* NEW* a *mind*function only, (increasing the knowledge-base), or can be done by a hypercomputer as well (without proper programming for the so far unknowables' input???) And I hate the references to *'zombies',* whatever one thinks about them. I stick to my common sense* in my agnosticism*.
John Mikes On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com>wrote: > On 16 January 2014 23:08, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > > > On 16 Jan 2014, at 09:11, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > >> On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> The computational metaphor in the sense of the brain works like the > Intel > >>> CPU inside the box on your desk is clearly misleading, but the sense > that > >>> a > >>> computer can in theory do everything your brain can do is almost > >>> certainly > >>> correct. It is not that the brain is like a computer, but rather, that > a > >>> computer can be like almost anything, including your brain or body, or > >>> entire planet and all the people on it. > >>> > >>> Jason > >> > >> > >> I think neuroscientists have, over decades, used the computational > >> metaphor in too literal a way. It is obviously not true that the brain > >> is a digital computer, just as it is not true that the weather is a > >> digital computer. But a digital computer can simulate the behaviour of > >> any physical process in the universe (if physics is computable), > >> including the behaviour of weather or the human brain. That means > >> that, at least, it would be possible to make a philosophical zombie > >> using a computer. The only way to avoid this conclusion would be if > >> physics, and specifically the physics in the brain, is not computable. > >> Pointing out where the non-computable physics is in the brain rarely > >> figures on the agenda of the anti-computationalists. And even if there > >> is non-computational physics in the brain, that invalidates > >> computationalism, but not its superset, functionalism. > > > > > > OK. But in a non standard sense of functionalism, as in the philosophy of > > mind, functionalism is used for a subset of computationalism. > Functionalism > > is computationalism with some (unclear) susbtitution level in mind > (usually > > the neurons). > > > > Now, I would like to see a precise definition of "your" functionalism. If > > you take *all* functions, it becomes trivially true, I think. But any > > restriction on the accepted functions, can perhaps lead to some > interesting > > thesis. For example, the functions computable with this or that oracles, > the > > continuous functions, etc. > > Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain > with a Turing machine and you would preserve the mind. This would not > be possible if there is non-computable physics in the brain, as for > example Penrose proposes. But in that case, you could replace the > brain with whatever other type of device is needed, such as a > hypercomputer, and still preserve the mind. I would say that is > consistent with functionalism but not computationalism. The idea that > replicating the function of the brain by whatever means would not > preserve the mind, i.e. would result in a philosophical zombie, is > inconsistent with functionalism. > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
