On 21 Jan 2014, at 16:55, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2014/1/21 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
On 21 Jan 2014, at 12:50, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2014/1/21 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
On 20 Jan 2014, at 21:11, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
Brent, as much as I like the idea of quantum effects being true,
and the Hameroff-Penrose thesis that microtubules are da' bomb,
There is a big difference between Penrose and Hameroff.
Penrose disbelieve comp. The soul in Penrose is not even emulable
by a quantum computer. The mircotubules are just used by him to
suggest a role for the quantum, but that role is in the non
computable wave packet reduction, that Penrose speculates to be
related to gravity. It is a non comp theory.
Hameroff does not go that far, and accepts comp. He believed that
the microtubules defined some quantum computer in the brain. For
example, in that case the UD proof goes through. Notably.
I feel we have to ask what good this does us? Medically, or
philosophically, I am not certain. How does knowing that one of
the moons of Neptune is called Neirid? Exactly! It don't. Am I
screaming for the cause of willful ignorance? Not intentionally,
but I still want all scientific analysis to benefit humankind.
Call it a super-goal.
Most of the human misery might be due to people who want the good
for the humankind.
Science, even ethical science, should be neutral. Then the good
appears when we learn to no more hide the possible truth. Happiness
is very simple, once it is not made into a goal.
For the human kind, people should do their job, and correct it when
it hurts. The problem is when we put bandits at the top, which will
professionally hides the truth and the suffering for personal
benefits. We have to fight that indeed, but in a spirit of self-
defense, not in the spirit of imposing new views on the world,
because that leads to unhappiness and lies.
Keep in mind that when we have discovered a cure for cancer, it has
been made illegal at once, even the research on it. That
illustrates the kind of barbaric world we live in.
Well cannabis has not been shown *to cure* cancer, but it has anti-
cancer properties, but it doesn't cure it
I can give you reference. In 1974 the americans have discovered that
it does indeed cure different sort of mice cancer. the cancerous
cells dies by eating themselves. The tumor shrinks and disappears.
Since then, the studies have shown that it can cures *or* slow down
173 type of cancer (and my study of this is old, so it might be a
larger number.
It has not been shown that it *cures* cancer, only that it has some
anti-cancer property...reread your so called 1974 study.
In that sense, OK. But then in science we ner proves anything. The
fact is that when you inject THC on tumors of certain type, they
statistically shrink.
Another studies have shown that the tar of cannabis contains stronger
oncogene (much oncogene than tobacco), but the statistics shows that
smoker of joint have less cancers than smoker of tobacco, and this is
explain by the fact that cannabis has anti-cancer properties.
Then many video have been made by people who cure their cancers after
all treatment failed. But there is no statistics for them.
My point is that we did have strong evidence that cannabis cures many
diseases, and has efficacious cancer effect, and that it remained in
schedule one, that is even forbidding research (which is already a
total nonsense, like if the danger was a reasn o not sudy something,
in nuclear times ...).
But we were discussing rationalism, and I was just pointing how poorly
rational are the political decision, illustrating with health.
... also canabis around the wolrd is becoming legal (or the
consumption depenalized).
It s about time, and not yet done.
The prohibition of any drug is a total nonsense.
I agree
OK. This helps for the point I was considering.
In fact the word "drug" has no meaning at all. It is an imaginary
enemy, build with pure propaganda. It is out of the topic, but I can
send you tuns of reference.
Prohibition of edible or consumable products has always been a trick
to augment artficially the consumption and the price of a product.
Anyway, I think you put to much faith and virtue in only one
thing... Sure cannabis has good side, but it also has bad one when
consumed with no moderation,
As a teacher, I have seen problem with cannabis only among tobacco
smokers,
As I said you only want to see what you believe... your assertion is
false. Various studies (not debunked) show that it increase
depressive behavior... you can assert no, but it's true, and I know
it first hand.
I think you did not answer, on previous talk on this, if your were
smoking it with tobacco, or when drinking alcohol. But I was not lying
at all. As a teacher, I have never seen any problem with cannabis. I
have seen problem with tobacco and alcohol., and now water. Even at
ULB there has been recently a problem of overdose of wwater. the young
lady survived, but after a long time in comatose state. Not sure how
she is now.
or worse, alcohol drinkers.
I didn't say that alcohol wasn't worse, but you are denying that
cannabis usage can lead to problematic usage (that's singing lalala).
All usage can be problematic. All products has his collection of
people getting bad experience with them.
Illegality makes it impossible to explain the danger of mixing an
hard drug like tobacco or alcohol with cannabis.
Abusive usage is not because cannabis is illegal.
I think it is. That is true for all drugs. The small limited
decriminalization of heroin, done recently in our country, have
illustrate this.
And many young people abuse of cannabis due to the presence of tobacco.
Joint can be highly addictive, but not cannabis without tobacco.
That's not true...
There are no statistically verifiable withdrawal symptom papers. All
papers I have seen on this describe few particular cases.
That cannabis can be habituating is true, but the habituation is light
compared to TV, for example. And it leads to less problems.
If you can give me a reference on a statistics (correctly done) on
cannabis withdrawal symptom, I am interested. I have not yet found one.
That cannabis can aggravate depression is also hard to prove.
Depressive person, like schizophrenics, can augment their use, but it
is still unclear if that helps them, or that cannabis might have a
role in the apparition of the problem.
Bruno
Quentin
I am not a big fan of recreative cannabis. But since I use it as a
medication (that is since 40 years), my pharma budget is about zero.
I did cure a strong sciatica with it, after all normal treatment
fails, and that the doctors press me to do a surgical operation, but
with cannabis, I could come back at work after one week.
I have and will verified, but cannabis has been made schedule one in
1970, just 4 years before the discovery that it can cure cancer
(1974), and it remained such! This shows the amount of lack of
scrupulousness in the mind of those who lead the country (in this
case senior Bush), and that was my point.
Things consume without moderation can always be bad, for any things.
When mixed with other hard drug that can be real bad.
hiding that and singing lalala saying that it's big thief/bandits
and so on that are responsible for that is just lies...
http://www.mapinc.org/newstcl/v01/n572/a11.html
I can give you all the original references. It was known than
cannabis is far less dangerous than alcohol since the start. All
papers showing a serious threat for a health have been debunked.
Brain damages have been shown result of lack on air (indeed Nahas
experiences have been lately shown to have involved rabbit smoking
dozen of cigarettes 24h/24h, etc.)
I have seen student using cannabis to pretext problems, but once you
stop playing their game, it stops being a problem, or the student
stop by themselves. In most case the problem is the tobacco behind.
I'm for the legalisation of the consumption and selling of
cannabis, but that *won't* solve all the problems in the world
Nobody said anything like that. It will just help for about 2000
diseases, and much better than the existing medication. In many
case, it is more than help, but a real cure.
and without a proper usage prevention it can do more harms than
good...
Same for bikes, climbing, home work, etc. Illegality is what makes
usage prevention impossible.
Cannabis is safer than most product sold in the supermarket. But
that is the reason why the bandits makes it illegal, as today we
know that illegality augment the dangerousness, so much that most
really dangerous drug get infinitely more dangerous when illegal,
and are quickly relegalized (like alcohol), if only because the
market is given to the bandits (cf Al Capone). Cannabis illegality
does not change the dangerousness of cannabis, because if you
multiply zero you get zero. That is why the illegality of cannabis
can stay so long, and why it is an excellent choice for the bandits
to make profits.
Cannabis and salvia are the only products I know having no overdose
fatalities. Chocolate, water (yes!), aspirin, vitamin, sugar, ...
leads to overdose. Since big campaign against the use of alcohol in
initiation parties, the number of water overdose has come close to
the number of alcohol overdose (for those parties).
The illegality of cannabis shows that democracies are not immune
against propaganda. That's the lesson, and that's is what we must
correct, if possible. Not for the human kind, but for our life
expectancy and the one of our children.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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