On 07 Mar 2014, at 17:51, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
Bruno,
I've repeatedly answered your question. I define computational
OPERATIONALLY as whatever is necessary and sufficient to actually
compute
But this is what I ask you to define. What do you mean by "compute"?
the evolving state of the universe.
With how many decimals?
This guarantees my definition is CORRECT,
Vacuously correct, as you do not provide a definition, nor do you
relate what you mean to the standard definition.
and it becomes a matter of determining what the actual necessary
computations are. And I've given a number of thoughts about that...
You define your comp THEORETICALLY and then insist that nature must
conform to your theory, apparently without even asking nature if it
does or not because you never say anything about physics. You only
discuss math and philosophy....
This is a big big difference.
I reason from a weak hypothesis, which you have accepted, and only
show the consequences.
Why not use your tehory to find a flaw in the reasoning, if you dion't
accept the consequence. Or that might help you to add in
"computational" what you need to escape the conquences. But if you
want to save a "unique physical reality", you will need to add many
actual infinities in your hypotheses.
Bruno
Edgar
On Friday, March 7, 2014 10:31:10 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 07 Mar 2014, at 13:21, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
All,
An empty space within which events occur does not exist. There is
no universal fixed pre-existing empty space common to all events
and observers.
In which theory?
In QM, the vacuum is full of events. Indeed the quantum state of the
"actual universe" might be a term in some quantum description of
emptiness.
In the comp toe-theory, you are right, as there is only 0, s(0),
s(s(0))), ..., and space, like with Kant actually, is a convenient
fiction to sum up infinities of arithmetical relation below our
substitution level, making the sharing of our most probable
computations sharable.
Why? Because we cannot establish its existence by any observation
whatsoever. We NEVER observe such an empty space. All we actually
observe is interactions between particulate matter and energy. In
fact, all observations ARE interactions of particulate matter or
energy, they are never observations of empty space itself.
Thus we cannot ever observe a pre-existing empty space, all we can
observe is particulate interactions which have what we call
dimensional relationships mandated by conservation laws.
But these dimensional relationships DO NOT EXIST UNTIL THEY OCCUR,
Define "occur".
and they are not observed until they are measured. Thus any notion
of space based on these dimensional relationships can be said to
EMERGE from particulate interactions rather than pre-existing as
something they occur within.
So what we call empty space is really just the mathematical rules
imposed by the conservation laws that govern particulate
interactions.
OK.
It is a computational structure rather than a physical structure.
Now that looks like computationalism, except you still did not say
if you use "computational" in the standrad sense of Turing, Post,
Church, Kleene, or ... in which sense?
If you use it in the standard sense, automatically you assume some
amount of arithmetical realism, and you get the "ontology" on a
plateau, as the sigma_1 complete part of arithmetic (a very tiny
part of the whole arithmetical reality) provides a computational
space.
Of course, that arithmetical reality has nothing to do with time,
space, and matter a priori, and is of the type "platonic out of time
immaterial ideas", but with comp this structure admits a description
in terms of "block universal machine landscape".
This again is another strong indication that everything really
occurs at the fundamental level as computations of pure abstract
information in a logico-mathematical space prior to dimensionality
and prior to physicality,
It it is prior physicality, it is prior to time.
and that dimensionality is something that EMERGES from these
computations rather than a pre-existing background to them...
Dimensionality, and time.
Those things does not occur, they are only interpreted as such by
the universal numbers.
Now once we understand that dimensionality EMERGES PIECEWISE FROM
information computations
if only we could knew what you mean by that.
encoding particulate interactions we have the key to resolving all
quantum paradox, unifying QT and GR and explaining the source of
Quantum randomness.
You are quick, but computationalism indeed solves QM paradoxes, in
the Everett "multi" way, as far as it extends Everett properly on
arithmetic, and this is testable, and already partially tested.
But no one here is interested in how that happens, or are they
afraid to tackle it? Perhaps because Edgar might be right on this
one and that would be a bitter pill to swallow? We will see if
anyone dares take up the challenge!
:-)
It is very promising, but you fail to convince me on your p-time
idea, and I am waiting for your explanation on what you mean by
"computation", and eventually how you relate the mind reality and
the observable reality.
But, first of all, what do you mean by "computation", and what are
you assuming for that explanation or definition.
The standard notion is arithmetical, accepting Church thesis, and
can be defined using only "0", "s", "+", "*" and the logical symbol
with "(" and ")".
Actually a unique diophantine polynomial of degree 4 is enough, by
the long work of Hilary Putnam, Martin Davis, Julia Robinson, Youri
Matiyasevich, and Peter Jones.
Bruno
Edgar
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