On Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:26:46 PM UTC-4, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Craig Weinberg > <[email protected]<javascript:> > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sunday, March 16, 2014 12:08:00 PM UTC-4, Platonist Guitar Cowboy >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 5:00 PM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sunday, March 16, 2014 11:38:41 AM UTC-4, Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> If there is nothing other than sensing, then why use all the pronouns >>>>> and nouns you do? There are no objects... so why would we need nouns and >>>>> how would the notion of a theory even work, given that a theory is a >>>>> noun/object. >>>>> >>>> >>>> There are no objects without sense, but certainly there is the sense of >>>> objects. >>>> >>> >>> How do they arise from primordial sense, or what is their relation to it? >>> >> >> Imagine an object - like a hammer. How did the hammer arise? How does the >> question "how" arise? >> > > Pretending there is no elephant in the room and commenting on the > decoration does not answer the question. MSR fooling around here but > pretending not to. >
I'm not pretending at all, I'm illustrating that as the fundamental principle of the universe, primordial sense doesn't need anything outside of itself. How do objects arise from arithmetic truth or physical forces? It's a tautological question since sense is already that which presents all experiences, including objects. > > >> >> >>> >>> >>>> Given sufficient distance between one sensory episode and another >>>> >>> >>> How does distance, episode, and arithmetic succession arise from >>> primordial sense, or what is the relation? >>> >> >> Primordial sense develops a sense of insensitivity to relate to itself. >> The relation is nested symmetry. >> > > Then primordial sense is no longer primordial: symmetry is. > No, because the primordial sense doesn't disappear. It has nowhere to disappear to. There is no symmetry other than the *sense* of symmetry. > > >> >> >>> >>>> , one may encounter the other as if it were an object rather than a >>>> feeling. Episodes which are much slower and faster than our >>>> >>> >>> How does "we" from your use of "our" arise from primordial sense, or >>> what is the relation? >>> >> >> Through nested insensitivity. I call it the Big Diffraction. >> > > As others have commented, the impression that MSR is about how you call > things ultimately, is growing with every post. > If you discovered physics, you would find a lot of opportunities to attribute phenomena to physics. If you discovered mathematics, you would find a lot of things that lead back to mathematics. Why do you think that I care about your impressions of others impressions of me? > >> Sense fragments itself through temporary insensitivities >> (episodes/entropies) >> > > You need arithmetic to be temporary according to your parenthesis, that > would make arithmetic a process phenomenon. Explain why arithmetic > properties do not change despite "temporary insensitivities". They should > all be in some dumb flux that should be observable, or have entropy > properties etc. > Entropy itself is not subject to entropy. Arithmetic properties do not change for the same reason that the skeleton is more rigid than a living body. It is petrified sense. The inverse of the absolute. > > >> which are gradually re-integrated (non-primordial sense, personal qualia, >> perception within spacetime, etc). The sense of the insensitivity of >> re-integration is what we call computation or information. >> > > You have fragmentation of sense primary to information. But this is itself > "information about MSR" by your own standards! > Who said anything about 'information about MSR'? > > >> >> >>> >>> >>>> episode are presented as objectified mechanical tropes...structures, >>>> bodies. >>>> >>> >>> How do languages emerge from primordial sense, or what is the relation >>> to it? >>> >> >> Languages of living creatures? >> > > You tell me: what is a living creature in MSR? > A living creature is a particular kind of experience. > > >> I would guess they emerge through as high level motives (communication >> between complex experiences) >> > > of who or what? > Of particular sense experiences. > > >> to overcome low level accumulations of entropy/insensitivity (separate >> bodies). >> > > Language having a will of its own, in sense of certain properties and > limits, is something I can relate to on some level; the only thing in your > entire string of responses today. > I wouldn't say that the language has a will, I would say that experiences which are separated from each other in certain ways are motivated to communicate. Language has no will of its own, but it reflects the sense of experience and of communication. > > MSR appears as the way you name things and pull sophisticated strings of > ever-shifting primitives out of your linguistic hat to make up for the gap, > of not being able to address who/what "senses" or who/what "complex > experiences" "objects"; all of which you fail to account for starting with > "primordial sense". > You fail to listen to my answer, which remains the same. There need be no who/or what that senses. Sense is primordial. "Who" may be an animal thing, not an ontological primitive. As far as the accusation that I'm shifting anything, I can only say that everything I have said remains here and on my website. If there is anything shifting, you should be able to produce some example of it. You are by no means alone in being unable to conceive of sensory experience outside of your own frame of reference as an ego-wielding primate, but it really should not be that much of a stretch. If you can conceive of language having a will of its own, why can't you entertain the possibility of will having a language of its own, and of will being the instrument of an even deeper primordial sense? > > A metaphor would be that you state that a game is running or in process > prior to there being rules, possibilities, limits, and outcomes of the > game. > Yes. Every game has developed this way. First people play with each other, with objects. Only later are games, rules, limits, outcomes, scores, etc enacted as optional enhancements. Games don't appear as disembodied frameworks of rules, they are emotional-social relations which are codified after the fact. > A bouncing ball however does not invent basketball, > No, basketball is invented by a human experience of a bouncing ball. > except in MSR; where the entropic asymmetries of episodic insensitivity of > sense primary to its own fragmentation have the bouncing ball cause the > phenomenon of living creatures instantiating the NBA. > With primordial sense, you don't need to have living creatures to have sense. You need certain kind of elaborated experiences to have a certain quality of sense that sees itself as a living creature, but the universe would be just fine without biology. > > Often you formulate things really eloquently and I'll be amazed at the > precision in which you render some thought or the other that hasn't found > expression in that particular form in my own discourse. But your linguistic > virtuosity possibly prevents MSR from developing or providing a base for > your insightful observations. > I don't know one way or the other what MSR should or should not be. I don't so much care, it's just an umbrella term to refer to this set of conjectures. > > At this point my impression is: with a bucket so personalized and leaky, I > can see how everything just goes in MSR, as long as Craig says so. For that > reason I've taken MSR in the other thread and just filled it arbitrarily > with my own primitives. You weren't amused because you thought I was > selling you nonsense; so you didn't even reply. Perhaps you can relate to > how I feel with many of your statements on MSR, then. > If you don't like what I write, and how I write it, I suggest you follow my example and ignore it. Craig > PGC > > >> >> Craig >> >> >>> PGC >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can't strike gold if sense contradicts its existence. PGC >>>>> >>>> >>>> Contradiction requires sense to 'exist'. >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Craig >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll now watch the clip you posted! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kim >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Mobile: 0450 963 719 >>>>>>>>> Phone: 02 93894239 >>>>>>>>> Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - >>>>>>>>> Mark Twain* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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