In the present state and the physical transition rules from one state to another ? if the transition is reversible then from only the current state you can infer the past state, without it being "encoded" in the present state... the current state + transition rule is enough.
Quentin 2014-03-19 16:33 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: > Telmo, > > No, that was Brent's claim. I'm asking him to tell us how it works. Where > is all that additional information about past states stored if he thinks > none of it is lost? > > Edgar > > > > On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:32:48 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Telmo, >>> >>> No, compression is totally unable to explain the storage of total >>> information in a universe which continually doubles its amount of >>> information from one Planck time to the next and continually adds that >>> amount to the cumulative total. >>> >> >> So you're essentially claiming that the universe is increasing >> exponentially in complexity? >> >> >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 8:17:28 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Brent, >>>>> >>>>> If information is not being lost then the amount of information in the >>>>> universe is increasing at a tremendous rate as new events occur, and has >>>>> been since the beginning. So where is all that new information being >>>>> stored? How can ever increasing amounts of information be being stored in >>>>> the SAME amount of matter states? >>>>> >>>> >>>> By an increase in Shannon entropy, up to a point. >>>> This is why you can compress computer files, for example. >>>> >>>> Telmo. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Presumably you do agree that information can't just float around >>>>> somehow without actually being encoded in actual matter states? >>>>> >>>>> I think I know the answer but would like to hear your take on it >>>>> first.... >>>>> >>>>> Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 8:57:57 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/18/2014 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the >>>>>>> system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with >>>>>>> them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, >>>>>>> decoherence has the same effect. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I was only asking about the theoretical possibility, given >>>>>> unrealistically perfect information about the state of the system. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The universe (assuming unitary QM) is reversible. In fact from the >>>>>> standpoint of QM there is no arrow of time - it's deterministic, just >>>>>> like >>>>>> Laplace's universe. So, as always, when the word "possibility" is used >>>>>> there has to be some context. To *calculate* a history of the universe >>>>>> from it's present state would require knowing its *complete* present >>>>>> state, >>>>>> including your mental state. Is that "theoretically possible"? I think >>>>>> it >>>>>> involves a paradox of self-reference. >>>>>> >>>>>> To put it another way, in the Game of Life, even with perfect >>>>>> information, you can't trace the state of the system backwards because it >>>>>> loses information. So even the laws of physics couldn't work backwards >>>>>> in a >>>>>> universe based on the GOL. QM, I'm informed, doesn't lose information, so >>>>>> (very much in theory) you could work backwards - or (less in theory) the >>>>>> laws of physics could. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes the universe doesn't lose information like the GoL. But relative >>>>>> to any point it loses information across spacetime horizons. So there's >>>>>> no >>>>>> way to gather that information up into a calculation unless you have some >>>>>> God's eye view from outside the universe, in which case you could see the >>>>>> past anyway. >>>>>> >>>>>> There's a couple of nice papers about this by Yasunori Nomura: >>>>>> arXiv:1205.267v2 is a popular exposition and arXiv:1205.5550v2 is a more >>>>>> technical paper. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I wasn't asking whether I could build a chronoscope and watch the >>>>>> past happening on TV. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. 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