On 02 May 2014, at 22:56, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/2/2014 8:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 01 May 2014, at 21:04, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/1/2014 2:18 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Someone said:
"So what does "existence" mean besides stable patterns of
information, e.g. perception of the Moon, landing on the Moon,
tidal effects of the Moon,.."
So electrons did not exist until Rutherford. And even so, in a
primitive form. Electrons had to wait in the limb of partial
existent things until Millican said: Let´s give mass to the
Electron. And the electrons existed happily since then.. Only for
the people aware of the pattern creation.
Existence is relative to theory.
Theoretical existence might.
What's "theoretical existence"?
Like you said, it is when existence is relative to a theory.
The existence might be real, when the theory is faithful with respect
to reality (but usually we can't know that for sure).
But the idea is that some theory can be correct, and in that case,
even if *we* cannot be sure, such an existence will be independent
of you and the theories.
That's the idea that there is some mind-independent reality.
Yes, indeed.
A very good theory, or should I say "meta-theory".
It is a religion. In the large sense. The belief in a reality
transcendent yourself. Be it the arithmetical reality, or the physical
reality, or the biologial reality, or the theological reality, etc.
A theory of everything will try, by not assuming too much, to explain
the existence or the appearance of those realities.
So electrons existed before Millican
That contradicts above.
Not at all. The theory of elementary particles is that they have
existed since the reheating at the end of inflation.
and protons existed after Gell-Mann showed they were made of
quarks. Just as the Moon exists after we discovered atoms.
? Are you serious?
The far away, and thus very old, galaxies exist since Hubble (the
telescope) detected them?
For a logician you make a lot unjustified inferences.
I was just asking a question.
I'd say protons failed to exist before Gell-Mann showed they were
made of quarks.
?
I was just making the point that even if you show, relative to some
theory, that the Moon can made of arithmetic it doesn't mean the
Moon ceases to exist or that we can't still define "Moon" by
pointing to that shiny thing in the sky.
We agree on this, but in the search of a" theory of everything", at
some point, just to be clear, we have to differentiate the many
different sort of existence, and their relations.
Then my point is that if comp is true, any sigma_1 complete theory
will do for the ontology, and any entity capable of knowwing its own
sigma_1 completeness will do for the observer, and its many
intensional variants. It is in all case the same truth, seen from many
different angles.
Bruno
Brent
This contradicts your post to me where you told me that the moon is
defined by ostentation. Humans refer to that light spot in the sky
before they knew about atoms.
You lost me. (Typo error?)
I think there are many sort of existence, and I prove that all
machines can discover them by instrospection: they are ExP(x), []
Ex [] P(x), for each of the many arithmetical modalities. In
arithmetic, those modal existences "emerge" logically from the
ontic existence: ExP(x).
Isn't "ontic existence" a redundancy, like "really real existence".
I agree that there are different kinds of existence, but I doubt
that you can get from mathematical satisfaction to Dr. Johnson.
Brent
Bruno
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