On 4/29/2014 1:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 27 Apr 2014, at 19:38, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/27/2014 1:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
I think the same. That's close to Platonism. There is more than what we see, measure,
etc.
Then we can theorize, which means making assumptions (like "the moon exist"), and
experimentation, like "going on the moon". This will not prove that the moon exists in
any real or fundamental way,
LOL. I think you've been a logician to long. :-)
Just being a rationalist, and interested in things going beyond the usual FAPP (For All
Practical Purposes).
To go to the moon, we need some "existence" of the moon, not necessarily an ontological
existence.
To solve the mind-body problem, or to put light on the nature of matter and
consciousness (and their relations) it is important to understand that seeing,
experiencing, ... don't prove (in the informal logician or mathematician sense indeed)
anything about 'reality'.
Proof in the informal logician or mathematical sense don't prove anything about reality
either. A proof is just a set of relations between premises and conclusions that preserve
a measure "T", we nominally call "true". So who you gonna believe, your premises and
inferences or your lyin' eyes? :-)
I like when David Mermin said once: "Einstein asked if the moon still exist when nobody
look at it. Now we know that the moon, in that case, definitely not exist".
Well, that was a comp prediction, with the difference that the moon doesn't exist even
when we look at it.
Only the relative relations between my computational states and infinitely many
computations exists.
Thus completely eviscerating the meaning of "exist".
If my consciousness can survive a physical digital substitution, then it survives an
arithmetical digital substitution, and what we call the moon has to be recovered as a
stable pattern emerging from an infinity of computations in arithmetic,
But only, I think, in a different digital universe in which "we" are also stable patterns
of relations. And in THAT universe what "we" call "the Moon" is what "we" can fly too and
and on.
Brent
Everyone knows that dragons don't exist. But while this
simplistic formulation may satisfy the layman, it does not
suffice for the scientific mind. The School of Higher Neantical
Nillity is in fact wholly unconcerned with what does exist.
Indeed, the banality of existence has been so amply demonstrated,
there is no need for us to discuss it any further here. The
brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically,
discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the
chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might
say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different
way...
--- Stanislaw Lem, The Cyberiad
and cannot be related from anything else. The math confirmed that this makes sense, as
the logic of 'certainty" ([]p & <>t) gives a quantum logic on the arithmetical sigma_1
(computational) proposition p.
Bruno
Brent
He's like a philosopher who says, "I know it's possible in
practice. Now I'd like to know whether it's possible in
principle."
--- Daniel Dennett, on Michael Behe
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