On 29 May 2014, at 13:29, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Thanks, Bruno-
My point is that yes as Mourjani, nobody who as been revived and
claims to have had these experiences, comes back, urging more
bloodlust, and slaughter. Everyone appears emotionally changed by
what the feel they experienced, whether a hallucination or not. The
God's name thing I comprehend, as when humans try to take on the
"God" thing as a means of rule and power. I feel with
Transhumanists, we do so out of desperation, because nobody seems at
the controls of the good, ship, Universe, most often. The
computationalism as a post mortem existence/resurrection, cannot yet
be falsified ala Karl Popper, but a stronger paper in math or
physics would certainly go a long way in convincing ourselves that
it is indeed true and that it is worth doing. Was it not Schrodinger
who wrote about the "uncanny accuracy of math in describing the
universe"?
It was Wigner.
But see also Warren Mc Cullosh's What is a number, that a man may know
it, and a man, that he
may know a number?", which express a similar idea.
probably on the net, yes:
http://www.vordenker.de/ggphilosophy/mcculloch_what-is-a-number.pdf
Of course comp's answer is that a man is a number which can know it is
a number ("know" in the theaetetus sense, which is weak, and would be
a machine's delusion IF comp is false).
Such of success would go a long way in moving people along mentally,
attitudinally, in viewing their lives and the lives of others. For
example, if people become convinced in an intellectual as well as a
visceral way, that there is a 'later' via the NDE path, or the Hans
Moravec path, then it makes less sense to be a fanatic, a stick in
the mud, or even, a pessimist, a cynic.
I am not sure on this. To me the cannabis files has shown that even
where there is zero scientific papers showing something, and thousands
of papers showing the contrary, many people continue to repeat lies
which was given in the worst unconvincing propaganda. I have known
serious statistician and logician falling in that trap. It is a bit
the same with the comp FPI. I got it more than 40 years ago, and have
explained it to many people. All rationalist I met understood, both
the notion, the interest and the main consequences, but after I defend
it in a PhD thesis, even scientists repeat, sometimes without knowing,
what is nothing more than lies and propaganda by some "professional
philosophers". I don't even know the motivation, but I guess it is of
the same type than for cannabis: the defense of the interest of some
corporation or club.
Take the cancer problem. We might think it is a good thing that the
society invest million of dollars to cure it, but when you look at the
details, you realize that such money is used to prevent cure (like
with antineoplaston for children brain tumors, cannabis for apparently
all tumors, or aspirin for breast tumors). Humans are not rational.
Aristotle was wrong on this too: humans are not rational animals, they
are irrational animals. Rationalism is used by some humans to exploit
and expanse that irrationality. In a sense, most animals are more
rational than the humans. You will not see an animal saying that we
have to be good and be kind with each other harboring a cross with the
image of a human under torture, and then burning "witches".
There is suddenly less rational motivation. More coffee, Professor?
Excellent idea, thanks.
I have to say that I depress a bit after the election in Europa and
the progression of the extreme right, although I expected it and
predicted since a long time. I have participated to a discussion, on
facebook, with people from the extreme right, to see how they reason,
but of course, they confuse p->q with q->p *all the times*, and when
you try to show them this, you get the usual insults.
Bruno
Mitch
That is a good point. All people coming back from a NDE talk more
about "unconditional love". Search for "Anita Mourjani" for eloquent
examples. Even people doing "bad NDE trip" understand their own
responsibility in this, and never make any hate speech toward any
others.
Some religion professes that we have to fear God, but that is close
to non sense to me or any (neo)platonists. Of course truth can be
feared by the liars.
Now, with classical computationalism, the blaspheme is when you
"name God", not in a theological inquiry, but when trying to put
normative behavior on other people. The separation of power is build
in the religion, so to speak.
Even if you consider this or that text being from God, you have not
the right to say that this to somebody else, as that person might
not understand (you can't know that), and it became an argument per
authority, indeed the worst one from a believer point of view.
The second possibility I think is worth examination, is the notion
that fantastic computer processing, if we can call it that, could
resurrect the dead, or exact copies of the dead, to the point, that
from memories, brain states, physicality, personal identity, they
are, indeed, the same person who was deceased. Is this madness, a
lie?
It is an hypothesis, a hope or a fear. It is something which true
cannot be proven or rationally justified, so it is also a form of
theology. It is called "computationalism". We cannot know it to be
true, if true, but we might refute some more precise version of it,
like classical comp, which is just comp + the classical logical
theory of knowledge (S4), which is recovered from Gödel's
provability notion when you apply to it the Theaetetus' definitions
of knowledge (true (justified) opinion).
Possibly, but these two areas are a means to an end, it is, in
essence, the How questions, of How such is accomplished, not
necessarily, the why?
I think comp can explain the how, and a large part of the why
(everything except the very existence of at least one universal
system, that you have with the Post-Church-Turing thesis).
Such a development, would for sure, alter the behavior of both Umah
and Kufar, because the world, in the human mind, and the physical
universe would be changed, and likely, for the better. We shall see
if this is just a bit of silliness that will be forgotten, or not?
I am not sure I understand this, but I guess I still need a bit more
coffee :)
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, May 29, 2014 4:40 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 28 May 2014, at 19:21, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
I am not assuming that it is unethical, but I have pieced together
that the glorious, afterlife that has been promised, especially
for males, is a sure incentive to behave aggressively toward Kufar
(infidels). If behaving as such pleases the creator, and guarantees
a shaheed (martyr) a bevy of interesting females to spend one's
time with, permanent youth and health, the drinking of wine
permitted, all this, and more, for the privaledge of pleasing God,
dying in the fight, and having all this paradise. I congratulate
the faithful for partaking of this heavenly, vision, for it sounds
quite excellent! (Sorry, Liz).
However, it's wrong-headed, just as the Crusades were, in a 'holy'
attempt to regain 'holy ground' slaughter the the non-Christians,
and gain great wealth, with the incentive of the son's of the rich
could find their fortune and fame in pursuit of wealth and Jesus's
favor. That was unethical as well, and very, murderous, as well.
People screw up, because that is the nature of the emotional beasts
we all are. Thus, misbehavior done in the attempt top gain heaven
and get one's self rich, is unethical.
What I am curious about is pushing the envelop for the human
condition of illness, aging, and death. One area that has gained my
attention, the NDE/Sam Paria studies, which indicate the
possibility of a post Morten survival. Interestingly enough. such
research has a absolute lack of 'returnee's' saying that what they
experienced (supposedly) was a demand for war and death. Nobody,
comes back, and this is worldwide, saying they were told to slay
Muslims, "cross-worshippers, Hindu's, Al Yahoodi, or even Atheists.
This, I find interesting.
That is a good point. All people coming back from a NDE talk more
about "unconditional love". Search for "Anita Mourjani" for eloquent
examples. Even people doing "bad NDE trip" understand their own
responsibility in this, and never make any hate speech toward any
others.
Some religion professes that we have to fear God, but that is close
to non sense to me or any (neo)platonists. Of course truth can be
feared by the liars.
Now, with classical computationalism, the blaspheme is when you
"name God", not in a theological inquiry, but when trying to put
normative behavior on other people. The separation of power is build
in the religion, so to speak.
Even if you consider this or that text being from God, you have not
the right to say that this to somebody else, as that person might
not understand (you can't know that), and it became an argument per
authority, indeed the worst one from a believer point of view.
The second possibility I think is worth examination, is the notion
that fantastic computer processing, if we can call it that, could
resurrect the dead, or exact copies of the dead, to the point, that
from memories, brain states, physicality, personal identity, they
are, indeed, the same person who was deceased. Is this madness, a
lie?
It is an hypothesis, a hope or a fear. It is something which true
cannot be proven or rationally justified, so it is also a form of
theology. It is called "computationalism". We cannot know it to be
true, if true, but we might refute some more precise version of it,
like classical comp, which is just comp + the classical logical
theory of knowledge (S4), which is recovered from Gödel's
provability notion when you apply to it the Theaetetus' definitions
of knowledge (true (justified) opinion).
Possibly, but these two areas are a means to an end, it is, in
essence, the How questions, of How such is accomplished, not
necessarily, the why?
I think comp can explain the how, and a large part of the why
(everything except the very existence of at least one universal
system, that you have with the Post-Church-Turing thesis).
Such a development, would for sure, alter the behavior of both Umah
and Kufar, because the world, in the human mind, and the physical
universe would be changed, and likely, for the better. We shall see
if this is just a bit of silliness that will be forgotten, or not?
I am not sure I understand this, but I guess I still need a bit more
coffee :)
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: Samiya Illias <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, May 28, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
You assume that Islam is unethical. Quranic teachings are based on
beautiful moral principles and enjoin ethical and just relations
among people. The Quran repeatedly enjoins good actions, read it
and you'll be amazed how far from truth all the negative propaganda
against it is!
Whether people study and follow the scripture or not is up to them.
If we start following the guidance, most of the social evils will
be weeded out.
Sadly, you confuse peoples' thoughts, behaviour and actions with
the message itself. It really doesn't matter if we label ourselves
as Muslims, Jews, or any other religion or not, or if we are a
member of the clergy or hold any leadership position in the
community, it is basically our beliefs, intentions and actions that
make us who we are and which we carry with us when we depart from
this life.
Samiya
On 28-May-2014, at 8:52 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
For me, its the actual physical, ethics, that need to be tuned up.
Getting to paradise, however delightful, over someone's dead body
is unethical. Morality, is between humans and God technically, but
ethics is between people. God, as he exists, can take care of
himself, but the all the humbleness in the world, devotion,
passion, cannot correct issues, if the Imams, and Muftis, instruct
otherwise. Even if the Koran, Soonah, and Bukhari are all God
given and have predictions that only God would know, it does no
good if the earth gets drowned in blood by seekers of paradise.
Unhelpful indeed.
-----Original Message-----
From: LizR <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, May 28, 2014 12:32 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
Here's page 1307 - I would prefer it if you quoted whatever it is
you're referring to rather than giving a link to a (rather
difficult to access) online book, because it doesn't mean much to
me...
<page1307.png>
As for the second link, I don't understand what it says there
either - it certainly isn't a very succinct "summary".
On 28 May 2014 16:19, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
There is a debate between the interpretation of the word s-j-d. I
assume it also means to become lowly, humble, submissive, and not
only physical prostration. [http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/
lane/ Book 1 Page 1307 ]
Summary of why is can't only mean physical prostration:
http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:10 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
Does it also explain how planets prostrate themselves?
On 28 May 2014 15:51, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
I won't be surprised if they eventually discover that there are a
total of 11 or 12 planets in the solar system.
[Al-Qur'an 12:4, Translator: Pickthall] When Joseph said unto his
father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the
sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.
[Al-Qur'an 12:100, Translator: Pickthall] And he placed his
parents on the dais and they fell down before him prostrate, and
he said: O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream of
old. My Lord hath made it true, and He hath shown me kindness,
since He took me out of the prison and hath brought you from the
desert after Satan had made strife between me and my brethren. Lo!
my Lord is tender unto whom He will. He is the Knower, the Wise.
Samiya
http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:35 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
Pluto Bids To Get Back Planetary Status
Pluto has at least five moons, an atmosphere and now a new
analysis places its diameter as bigger than its outer solar system
rival Eris.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/pluto-bids-for-planethood/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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