> On 01-Jun-2014, at 12:14 am, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> On 30 May 2014, at 05:43, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 30-May-2014, at 7:35 am, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 30 May 2014 14:26, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> These are people who are committing crimes in the name of religion. You, >>>> on the outside, are horrified by such acts in the name of Islam, and are >>>> terrified of it, rightly so. We, on the other hand, live in midst of this >>>> blatant violation of the guidance in the Quran! What these elements have >>>> not been able to find or insert in the Quran, they have created >>> >>> Some of the people involved are priests, and some are students of Islam - >>> do you think that these are people who are committing crimes in the name of >>> religion? Again this is a straight question, I'm not drawing any >>> conclusions at the moment. >> >> What's wrong is wrong. They may think they're doing right and may feel it to >> be their pious duty, however it is still wrong. How God will judge them is >> another matter, let God do that. However, it is important to speak up and >> point out that it's incorrect and inhumane. >> >> Please also bear in mind that all religions have suffered the tragedy of >> deviation from the original message, misunderstood and convoluted it into >> something terrible. Islam has also suffered thus. However, the arabic Quran >> is preserved in written form and in the minds of millions of people since it >> was revealed. That is the criteria that I apply to evaluate whether >> something is correct or not. > > Hmm.... Because you take as axioms that those word are divine. > The Quran seems to contain threats for those departing of the text, but that > is an authoritative argument. > It can be true that departing from Truth is a problem, but I am not sure that > this can be said. > > > >> You may have noticed that I present Quranic verses to answer or explain my >> point, which I believe is divinely revealed, > > Is that not a problem?
No, because (a) the questions being asked are about the contrast between core beliefs of Islam and the practical implementation (b) to show that Quranic guidance is far from the ideas people have developed about the religion > > Is that not a warning for anybody to not criticize any point in the text. No. I have not taken offence to the so many things said in this and other threads, and politely tried to answer the points raised. The reason I quote is so that people can verify for themselves, instead of just accepting my words > > Most mystics text fall easily in the theological trap, where true proposition > becomes false, as they were unassertable. It is like a machine picking up a > proposition in its own G* \ G, and asserting it. They are true about them, > but cannot be asserted. > > Let me ask you a question. Imagine we agree on some terms of comparison, and > decide to compare G* (the main root of machine's theology) with the Quran, > and imagine that the G* interpretation of the Quran appears much closer to > the Sufi interpretation than the "mainstream" one, with more symbolics and > less literalism, would you conclude that computationalism is false or that > the Sufi are right? You will have to explain comp in more detail in plain English, or teach me how to interpret your mathematical notation. Also, I need to understand your machine theology better before I can start commenting on it. As far as Sufism is concerned, what I've read of it and about it, I'm not convinced about their beliefs. > > Suppose, or imagine if you can, that we find an error in the Quran, would you > abandon the idea that it is a literal text by God, or would you abandon the > idea that God is perfect? I would abandon the idea that it is the protected literal text of God. I believe that we can verify this by examining the verses that can be examined in the light of scientific knowledge. I have started a humble effort in a new blog: signsandscience.blogspot.com It'll be helpful if you can have a look at it from time to time and comment on the scientific content. > > Would you develop the idea that such a text might be not that easy to > interpret? If God has sent it for humanity's guidance, it has to be easy enough for different intellects to understand it. Of course, a child would read it differently than an adult, a non-scientist would read it differently than a scientist, a philosopher would evaluate it on a different criteria and so on. Since it's for all humans, it should be able to satisfy all branches of honest intellectual inquiry. > > You show that you are open to reason, and I can't grant that the Quran > deserves respect, but only as long as we have the right to doubt each verse > OK? You can't use the argument "it is from God, so it has to be true" OK? Of course you have every right to doubt and question. Is that why my simple statement that I wouldn't be surprised if a total of 11 or 12 planets were found in Solar System did not get a scientific response of whether it is or not plausible and instead got flared up into a debate about actions done by Muslims, Islamic law and it's application around the world? The same thing happened with the Crows have intelligence thread. Samiya > > Bruno > > > > > >> and not Hadith which I believe are human efforts at compiling history and >> thus are replete with human shortcomings. >> >> Samiya >> >> >>>> >>>>> On 30-May-2014, at 5:28 am, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> So which lot is it who does this sort of thing? Honest question. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27614359 >>>>> >>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/10850212/Iranian-actress-Leila-Hatami-faces-public-flogging.html >>>>> >>>>> http://m.inquirer.net/newsinfo/?id=606058 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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