On 01 Jun 2014, at 00:25, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 01-Jun-2014, at 12:14 am, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30 May 2014, at 05:43, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 30-May-2014, at 7:35 am, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30 May 2014 14:26, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
These are people who are committing crimes in the name of
religion. You, on the outside, are horrified by such acts in the
name of Islam, and are terrified of it, rightly so. We, on the
other hand, live in midst of this blatant violation of the
guidance in the Quran! What these elements have not been able to
find or insert in the Quran, they have created
Some of the people involved are priests, and some are students of
Islam - do you think that these are people who are committing
crimes in the name of religion? Again this is a straight
question, I'm not drawing any conclusions at the moment.
What's wrong is wrong. They may think they're doing right and may
feel it to be their pious duty, however it is still wrong. How God
will judge them is another matter, let God do that. However, it is
important to speak up and point out that it's incorrect and
inhumane.
Please also bear in mind that all religions have suffered the
tragedy of deviation from the original message, misunderstood and
convoluted it into something terrible. Islam has also suffered
thus. However, the arabic Quran is preserved in written form and
in the minds of millions of people since it was revealed. That is
the criteria that I apply to evaluate whether something is correct
or not.
Hmm.... Because you take as axioms that those word are divine.
The Quran seems to contain threats for those departing of the text,
but that is an authoritative argument.
It can be true that departing from Truth is a problem, but I am not
sure that this can be said.
You may have noticed that I present Quranic verses to answer or
explain my point, which I believe is divinely revealed,
Is that not a problem?
No, because (a) the questions being asked are about the contrast
between core beliefs of Islam and the practical implementation (b)
to show that Quranic guidance is far from the ideas people have
developed about the religion
All right (although we might discuss the "responsibility" of a text
for his possible misinterpretation).
Is that not a warning for anybody to not criticize any point in the
text.
No. I have not taken offence to the so many things said in this and
other threads, and politely tried to answer the points raised. The
reason I quote is so that people can verify for themselves, instead
of just accepting my words
Nice.
Most mystics text fall easily in the theological trap, where true
proposition becomes false, as they were unassertable. It is like a
machine picking up a proposition in its own G* \ G, and asserting
it. They are true about them, but cannot be asserted.
Let me ask you a question. Imagine we agree on some terms of
comparison, and decide to compare G* (the main root of machine's
theology) with the Quran, and imagine that the G* interpretation of
the Quran appears much closer to the Sufi interpretation than the
"mainstream" one, with more symbolics and less literalism, would
you conclude that computationalism is false or that the Sufi are
right?
You will have to explain comp in more detail in plain English, or
teach me how to interpret your mathematical notation. Also, I need
to understand your machine theology better before I can start
commenting on it. As far as Sufism is concerned, what I've read of
it and about it, I'm not convinced about their beliefs.
Fair enough.
So let me be straight and naive on this. And short. There has been a
big discovery: the discovery of the universal machine, or number. It
is an arithmetical notion.
We can compare the discourse of the religious people with the
discourse of an ideally correct universal number.
It looks like the discourse of the mystics, notably the rationalist
mystics like the Neoplatonists, and Plato itself (arguably), is closer
than the Aristotelian theologies.
At the start, I am not sure, but current of platonism were strong
among christians (like most students of Hypatia), and similarly with
the Jewish and the Muslims.
Unfortunately in 523 Plato's academy is closed, and "free pagan or non
confessional theology" judged heretic and banished (in the best case).
So (neo)platonism will not survive in occident at that date, and it
will survive somehow up to the 11th century in the middle east.
To put it simply, there is a one, the many are the internal modes of
that one.
Suppose, or imagine if you can, that we find an error in the Quran,
would you abandon the idea that it is a literal text by God, or
would you abandon the idea that God is perfect?
I would abandon the idea that it is the protected literal text of
God. I believe that we can verify this by examining the verses that
can be examined in the light of scientific knowledge. I have started
a humble effort in a new blog: signsandscience.blogspot.com It'll
be helpful if you can have a look at it from time to time and
comment on the scientific content.
In my humble opinion, you can't nitpick with the sacred.
Hmm... It is delicate as I see you have some emotional attachment to a
literal reading of a sacred text, but well, buddhist thinks that we
have to kill all buddhas at some point (of course: not literally).
It can be problematical with the literalist of the other religion, and
with all the non literalists.
We think god cannot be named, which really implies that you can't
identify it with anything, and specifically invoke in the human affair.
For a neoplatonist the Quran can be a mean toward truth only if it is
well distinguished with the truth itself.
Would you develop the idea that such a text might be not that easy
to interpret?
If God has sent it for humanity's guidance, it has to be easy enough
for different intellects to understand it.
But here is a problem: the text is prose, in fact even a poem. It is
not a treatise in physics, nor even in theology (where notions of
god(s) are discussed and questioned).
Of course, a child would read it differently than an adult, a non-
scientist would read it differently than a scientist, a philosopher
would evaluate it on a different criteria and so on. Since it's for
all humans, it should be able to satisfy all branches of honest
intellectual inquiry.
You show that you are open to reason, and I can't grant that the
Quran deserves respect, but only as long as we have the right to
doubt each verse OK? You can't use the argument "it is from God, so
it has to be true" OK?
Of course you have every right to doubt and question. Is that why my
simple statement that I wouldn't be surprised if a total of 11 or 12
planets were found in Solar System did not get a scientific response
of whether it is or not plausible and instead got flared up into a
debate about actions done by Muslims, Islamic law and it's
application around the world? The same thing happened with the Crows
have intelligence thread.
I can argue that in "Alice is Wonderland" you have everything: the
theory of relativity, Gödel, Löb, quantum mechanics, even the EPR-bell
experience (poor Alice!).
Do I take this as an evidence that Lewis Carroll met God? Oh well,
most plausibly, but there is no need to make a fuss about that. It is
more common than you might think, especially with good artist and
poet, or with some technic (fasting, plants, sleep-yoga, body yoga,
etc.).
Truth is in yourself, not in any books. I think. Despite the immense
help books can provide, they are obstacle if you confuse the book(s)
with the truth.
Bruno
Samiya
Bruno
and not Hadith which I believe are human efforts at compiling
history and thus are replete with human shortcomings.
Samiya
On 30-May-2014, at 5:28 am, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
So which lot is it who does this sort of thing? Honest question.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27614359
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/10850212/Iranian-actress-Leila-Hatami-faces-public-flogging.html
http://m.inquirer.net/newsinfo/?id=606058
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