Telmo's point about ganja convictions are true, save the Vice article
did not mention American minorities being involved in the commission of
theft, robbery, carjackings, shopliftings, beatings, while having weed
on their posession. For the US police, it must be one stop shopping for
them. Perp does a break in, perp gets caught, perp gets convicted of
possession, fleeing the scene of a crime. Prosecutor throws book at
minority criminal and crime statistics then indicate a prejudice
against American minorities.
Now compare this to, US college student (any race) wakes up on a rainy
sunday morning, drinks water or beer, lights up a blunt, and then goes
back to sleep. Marijuana has been used, but not along with user in the
commission of a crime. Thus, the statistics gets skewed, but for
rational reasons. Back to the death penalty. Its hard for me to
determine what disuades people from murdering, if anything. Is there
such a thing as just revenge?
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 8:03 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 08 Jun 2014, at 10:40, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 10:29 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
Telmo, I tend toward trying Libertarianism first, and pragmatic
enough to insist on something that works, Libertarian, or not. But, its
a first go for me, its just simpler. The Marxists chooses government,
first last always. This is irrational, dishonestly irrational. I am no
big fan of the Romans and their laws, anymore than I am a fan or
Stalin's industrialization, or Adolf building the autobahn. I am also
no fan of hitlerizing the police in the US. The facts are that Obama's
supporters are fans of this, for the most part, envisioning that those
troops will be there to protect them from armed Teabeaggers. In the few
cases of police fighting student protesters or Occupy dunces, please
remember that both the police and protesters are on the same side.
Whether its unionized police, or protestor/Marxists, they were on the
same side, similar ideologies, similar loyalties unto King Barry.
I am not sure how this relates to the issue of the morality of capital
punishment. You could live in an anarchist society and face the same
problem. Eventually there's going to be a murder, and people will have
to decide how to deal with it. In fact, the success of an anarchist
society (if such a thing is possible at all) depends on individual
rationality and ethics.
As applies the death penalty, armed police are who, when shooting
happen at colleges, or schools, are the responders who eventually kill
the perpetrator, or in most cases H, always a male, commits suicide. My
summation is that had these bastards faced an armed citizenry, this
would have save lives. What two nations in your hemisphere- the death
penalty aside-have very, low, crimes, of violence, though their
citizenries are heavily armed? Answer, Switzerland and Israel. Why
aren't their crimes of violence rates going through the roof? The best
answer seems to be social cohesion. Also, please note, that the
murderers of the last few decades who commit "senseless" violence, seem
to be schizophrenic's, or yes, autism sufferers, which gives evidence
to notion of social isolation, and an inability to consider other
humans, people. I over simplify, but this is the best way to go on a
mailing list, yes?
I too am against gun control. Again, I don't see how this relates to
the morality of capital punishment. I already told you that I find
killing acceptable as self-defence (if given no other option).
Yes, the big difference relies in that. Killing someone shooting kids
is an act of self-defense. Death penalty is when you captured the
shooter alive, and decide month or years after to kill him/she despite
he:she is no more dangerous.
Either the guy was mad and need to be cured or isolated in some asylum,
or the guy is judged responsible, and deserves to be isolated in jail.
Then experts can judge if he is still dangerous after some times.
Killing will solve nothing. She/he will not even be any more able to
become sorry or say sorry. It makes forgiving impossible, and can kill
symbolically the victim(s) a second time. I don't believe in revenge. I
understand the instinct, but I don't believe it works. It is like
applying terrorist methods to fight terrorism. Once you do that the
terrorists have won.
Bruno
I will say that the US's rate of crime, is often not simply poverty,
but the values that contribute to poverty. In other words the mind-set,
or values sets the trajectory.
Sure. But let's not forget that law enforcement is still racist:
http://www.vice.com/read/black-people-are-more-likely-to-be-arrested-for-marijuana-possession-than-white-people-twir
(this, on top of prohibition laws, which are already immoral)
Most people, even though we hate them, get a pass from us, not
because of our own wonderful self control, but because we know our acts
will effect those we care most about. An autistic, or a psychotic
sufferer likely will have great difficulty bonding with their fellows,
even family members. I am ghoulish enough to say, Yes, I am fine now,
but what if this and such happens? As for the death penalty, the only
reason I'd halt it, not the only, is because others in our society
suffer anxiety because of the procedures and news coverage.
I think it's a good argument against the death penalty, but I don't
need it. I think it's unethical to initiate violence. If officers kill
a suspect because they were left with no other choice to protect
themselves or others, I understand. But if the suspect was already
detained, the violence should stop there.
but, its over-all effect on your societies, is not largely more
peaceable then ours, considering your concern with US police and
military.
Historically, you are right. In the context of the 21st century, the
USA have initiated unnecessary wars and departed from an enlightened
principle of military as defence.
These images worry me:
https://www.google.de/search?q=police+state&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=a-CRU5OENem_ygO2mYKAAQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1243&bih=683#q=militarization+of+police+in+america&safe=off&tbm=isch
We've seen this shit before and we know very well how it ends.
There may be a good reason not to have capital punishment, and that
is, it may stress many people out, who are unrelated to the specific
case. On the other hand, even primitive minds, such as myself can
understand revenge.
I have a primitive mind too, and I can understand it. I can imagine
scenarios where I'd seek revenge. But now that I am sitting here, cool
headed, I also understand that revenge is in nobody's interest. This is
why we have courts instead of mob justice, and we avoid having the
emotionally compromised calling the shots. In fact, it's a basic
principle of western civilisation that goes all the way back to Roman
law.
The "civilized society claim" is curious, which is why I invoked the
crime rate comparison, because it punches a hole through the civilized
society/we are better than you! argument. Which sort of shows that
people who suggest this as fact, may be incorrect.
I never suggested that Europe is better than the USA. I suspect that
Americans sometimes assume this, when in fact they are being given a
compliment. Many of us here expect a lot from you. You were the first
and only so far to put one of our human brothers in another world. That
is not lost on me, so I am just disappointed that you still adhere to
ideas that I consider medieval.
Telmo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 11:43 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 4:57 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
This is fascinating, and I have had such experiences as well.
I was warned against certain areas and I went there anyway. They
looked more grimy, but never had a problem. I fondly remember a poor
crack addict who wanted two things from me: cigarettes and to tell me
about Jesus. I agreed with both and everything was fine.
But you might consider that a nation state with executions, do not
have a highly expanded rate of crime, nation wide, Yes, you never
claimed this, but its a natural next step.
I'm not so sure that it's the natural next step. Societies are very
complex things. Again, my objection to the death penalty is on
principle, not motivated by some outcome.
You're against state executions out of fear of executing the
innocent, which is sensible,
I think it's a good argument against the death penalty, but I don't
need it. I think it's unethical to initiate violence. If officers kill
a suspect because they were left with no other choice to protect
themselves or others, I understand. But if the suspect was already
detained, the violence should stop there.
but, its over-all effect on your societies, is not largely more
peaceable then ours, considering your concern with US police and
military.
Historically, you are right. In the context of the 21st century, the
USA have initiated unnecessary wars and departed from an enlightened
principle of military as defence.
These images worry me:
https://www.google.de/search?q=police+state&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=a-CRU5OENem_ygO2mYKAAQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1243&bih=683#q=militarization+of+police+in+america&safe=off&tbm=isch
We've seen this shit before and we know very well how it ends.
There may be a good reason not to have capital punishment, and that
is, it may stress many people out, who are unrelated to the specific
case. On the other hand, even primitive minds, such as myself can
understand revenge.
I have a primitive mind too, and I can understand it. I can imagine
scenarios where I'd seek revenge. But now that I am sitting here, cool
headed, I also understand that revenge is in nobody's interest. This is
why we have courts instead of mob justice, and we avoid having the
emotionally compromised calling the shots. In fact, it's a basic
principle of western civilisation that goes all the way back to Roman
law.
The "civilized society claim" is curious, which is why I invoked the
crime rate comparison, because it punches a hole through the civilized
society/we are better than you! argument. Which sort of shows that
people who suggest this as fact, may be incorrect.
I never suggested that Europe is better than the USA. I suspect that
Americans sometimes assume this, when in fact they are being given a
compliment. Many of us here expect a lot from you. You were the first
and only so far to put one of our human brothers in another world. That
is not lost on me, so I am just disappointed that you still adhere to
ideas that I consider medieval.
Telmo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 9:56 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:50 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
I am not attacking the EU, but I am trying to see if your impressions
of the US are based on experience or news. Since it is based on
experience, were there any neighborhoods you would have been
intimidated to visit, or, since, I am prompting you, as a non-US
citizen, and speaking to the US crime rate-regarding executions, a part
of a city where it's best to be cautious?
I was warned against certain areas and I went there anyway. They
looked more grimy, but never had a problem. I fondly remember a poor
crack addict who wanted two things from me: cigarettes and to tell me
about Jesus. I agreed with both and everything was fine.
My response is really for your post before this one, and your belief
that (apparently) crime is prevalent everywhere in the US, because we
have the death penalty.
I never claimed this, perhaps you are confusing me with another
poster. I oppose the death penalty on principle: I believe it is wrong
to kill other human beings, except when absolutely necessary for
self-defence. I believe that violence generates more violence, but I
never made any claims about the crime rate in the USA.
It seems that this was not your experience in real life, which would
contradict, perhaps, your world view.
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier
than we, less spoiled yes, but happier no.
Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows?
There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but
this could be for a number or reasons.
Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth
is a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants.
I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have
been to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south
and middle america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more
times -- although I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks
me out. Overall the USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to
strangers than in Europe. I am also an admirer of parts of USA history,
including its constitutional principles. I think the declaration of
independence is a beautiful document and a turing point in world
history. It states that life is an unalienable right, that the
government exists to protect.
Dopamine is not justice,
Sure. "Justice" is a superstition.
nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a
place where the streets run red with blood?
No, as per above.
What communities in the US are the most violent?
The police and the military.
I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am
fascinated by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals,
life is thus, better, and so are we, as societies.
The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so
far-fetched to me. But hey...
In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in
Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same
thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh
was executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh
killed 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his
sentencing, how long will Breivik remain in jail?
There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for
us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police
forces are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking
for people to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime
rates, not to provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it
appears to work quite well.
Telmo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 7:23 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier
than we, less spoiled yes, but happier no.
Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows?
There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but
this could be for a number or reasons.
Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth
is a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants.
I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have
been to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south
and middle america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more
times -- although I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks
me out. Overall the USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to
strangers than in Europe. I am also an admirer of parts of USA history,
including its constitutional principles. I think the declaration of
independence is a beautiful document and a turing point in world
history. It states that life is an unalienable right, that the
government exists to protect.
Dopamine is not justice,
Sure. "Justice" is a superstition.
nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a
place where the streets run red with blood?
No, as per above.
What communities in the US are the most violent?
The police and the military.
I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am
fascinated by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals,
life is thus, better, and so are we, as societies.
The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so
far-fetched to me. But hey...
In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in
Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same
thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh
was executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh
killed 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his
sentencing, how long will Breivik remain in jail?
There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for
us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police
forces are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking
for people to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime
rates, not to provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it
appears to work quite well.
Telmo.
You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that
our hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives.
This might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the
environment that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we
have technology and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits
artificially to relieve people in need, without causing further
violence. The only thing preventing us are superstitions inherited from
a distant past. In 2011, Anders Breivik sought to punish race-traitors,
and the Socialist Party summer camp,
Telmo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 7:05 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
You may be correct indeed, but if being part of the "civilized world"
protects violent, predatory, criminals, including, (drumroll) Islamists
and Putin, the I suppose I will demur from being civilized. Most
capital crimes, even in Texas, are crimes of passion. I don't see it
(no death penalty) as being civilized, I view it as an excuse to be
uncaring toward the victim's family.
The desire for vengeance is hard-wired in our brains. We get a good
dopamine hit from it, which might relief the suffering of people who
are grieving. Now, in 2014, we can recognise this mechanism for what it
is. It was probably useful for our hunter-gatherer ancestors, but it is
maladaptive in a globalised world with 7 billion people and nuclear
weapons.
You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that our
hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives. This
might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the
environment that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we
have technology and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits
artificially to relieve people in need, without causing further
violence. The only thing preventing us are superstitions inherited from
a distant past.
Telmo.
The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has
been fully achieved in most of the civilised world.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 6:57 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:47 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
No death penalties. I am not sure I agree, but if this is the goal,
then things need to be done really differently.
Hum? Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capital_punishment.PNG
The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has been
fully achieved in most of the civilised world.
Telmo.
I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal".
-----Original Message-----
From: LizR <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Jun 2, 2014 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 3 June 2014 10:28, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
To seek your goal I am guessing elements of society, law, and
technology, must improve.
I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal".
For many, nothing is broken, or they have an interest in things
continuing as they are. We'd have to get into problem soving mode to do
all that. The world does not seem to be in a problem solving mood.
This is of course true, "business as usual" is nideed in the process
of destroying the world. Not sure what it has to do with the previous
topic but FWIW I agree.
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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