On 18 Jul 2014, at 19:44, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Additionally,
I don´t know how to remark that you systematically forget the notion
that the rejection of God as a coverup for the rejection of God´s
creation, a rejection of the current state of nature and society. If
that
were not the case, it would not make sense the rejection of
something with
no effects watsoever in life.
Who reject what? I just show that weak materialism is not compatible
with mechanism.
For the atheist, God's creation is nothing
?
I can understand that "God is nothing", or that "God does not exist"
for the atheists, but most replace it by the "creation", that is the
physical universe.
but the poisonous effects
in the minds of people, so that they do not show (epic fanfares start
to sound) "the complete unfolding of human potentialities"
But that cultural determinism has been refuted time ago, despite the
fact that it remain in fashion and gives comfortable seats in politics
and the university. Gender studies, gender politics etc etc etc. But
it has been refuted. It is just a matter of taking seriously natural
selection and applying it to the human being. Natural laws are not
compatible with cultural determinism. Period.
That might be another topic. I have no opinion about cultural
determinism or not. Those are heavy words with unclear meaning, to me.
You can take a look at the book: "The blank slate", from Steven
Pinker. There are very clear evolutionary reasons why human nature is
what it is, and there are very compelling reasing why human societies
have certain institutions and not others, in the same way that we can
not fly by moving the ears. Either facts are not something for which
the Church is responsible, no matter how shoking may be for some
people. The traditional religions only take note of what is natural
and put them in the books.
Hmm... OK. Why not. I don't see the point.
For some agnostics, It is the opposite. God may be a product of
evolutionary forces that shaped the mind of the people and configure
the society.
usually we say that God does not exist, in that case. It looks more to
atheism than agnosticism to me.
BUT, let´s admit it, for the shake of argument: BUT your mind
configure your world
and your reality, the only reality you can perceive.
OK. But once we have some theory, we can point on a reality which
extends our mind (like a physical universe, a god, some truth in math,
etc.).
Then, under that
assumption, God must be real.
Yes. that's a good point.
The vision of a person as a person instead
of as a blob of faceless matter is also a product of natural
selection. That does not mean that persons do not exist. they exist.
Sure. You go in my sense. person already exists from the view of
arithmetic from inside. No need of a primary physical universe, which
with comp is a senseless notion.
For the deists, God is something not accessible, that do not interfere
in your life.
Deism has also the more general meaning of "believing in a God which
might not be necessarily the Abramanic one.
But Truth for a mind never have a neutral value. Not as
long as that mind gobern a body that has to find ways for subsistence.
OK.
ideas don´t sustain themselves in the platonic realm.
?
That contradicts directly Plato. Platonist do believe in a realm of
ideas independent of them, and sustained by God.
They exist
because they have a practical value since the mind is ultimately a
product of the accomodation to the restrictions of the environment.
I don't know that. Perhaps.
Therefore the mind do not adopt ideas for nothing, specially the ones
as important as to take us days and days of discussion.
Agreed.
What is observable in all locations and times is that people follow
leaders, not naked ideas.
Sure, but some people can also look inward, and dicover what all
machine can discover looking inward, and which is sometimes well
described by some thinkers, like Pythagorus and Plotinus, which fits
nicely with the interview of the universal machine.
Religions and ideologies with the power to
change things are created around concrete people that have ideas but
not around naked ideas.
Nor around strings or particles, either. I can agree "sociologically",
but that has nothing to do with the fact that if we are machine, the
physical universe is itself a product of an evolution of some kind (in
the space of number's dream).
If you like "evolution", you should like comp, because it can be seen
as a extension of the theory of evolution up to the origin and
development of the physical reality.
This is because ideas do not coordinate
people. it is necessary a leader, that proposes a path in life
compatible with these ideas. Any truth with motivational and vital
significance ever involves a person that lead it. Any Truth that you
may follow are not naked
ideas, but involve people that have ideas and plans of action, paths
in life. And as social being we need plans to live with people
according with them. There is no alternative.
No problem, except that leaders might be contingent to humans and
mammals, and does not play a role in the origin of physics, except
with the "leader" truth, supposed to be independent of us.
That is why when Jesuschrist say: "I´m the Way, the Truth and the
Life" says something very deep in psychological, metaphisical and
religious terms at the same time.
That looks like authorianism to me. Why Jesus? Why not Mohammed? why
not Ganesh?
As eartly minds with bodies in charge of, you have to follow someone,
or you may try to be one that others may follow, or you may do nothing
and stay in dilettant and sterile nothingness for life. The latter
seems the non-path of modernity. And you and your people for sure will
vanish under people that DO have a path in life, that follows a
leader.
You worry me a little bit. Leaders are contingent to mammals. I have
only one leader: God, or truth (in the sense of searching it, not
pretending knowing it).
Alternatively, you can follow a earthy leader. That is very dangerous,
OK. Good. Phew!
as you know if you read history books. Almost as dangerous and
destructive as not following anyone at all and vanish after doing
nothing in life.
Christ is the best option. More on that sometime later
OK. I have taken a lot of time to study christianism, and I let you
know that I am not sure if there are any relationships between
christianism before and after the closure of Plato academy. Once a
religion accepts earthly leaders, I abandon it, as "my religion", like
you say yourself actually, consider earthly leader as always fake.
There are politicians in disguise.
Bruno
2014-07-18 11:52 GMT+02:00, Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>:
Thereforeeee... my dear friends atheists, agnostics and deists....
The salvation vessel of monistic materialism, the theories of
everything that predict infinite many universes with infinite
physical
laws, either arithmetical or mathemathical, are compatible with any
metaphisical or theological position: metaphysical dualism,
monotheism, politheism etc
in a sense these theories not only give zero information in physical
terms but also in metaphysical terms. So we can say that they are
perfect non-theories.
2014-07-17 19:07 GMT+02:00, Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>:
Why I have to claim that?
I claim that any monistic ("scientific") theory that predict
infinite
many universes predict also infinite many minds with infinite many
degrees of knowledge and mastering over their realities and the
realities that they may create, that, assuming monistic materialism,
can contain also other subordinate minds. Because we do not know
our
position in the hierarchy etc etc etc etc
2014-07-17 18:16 GMT+02:00, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]>:
You cannot now claim, baring evidence, that we can change
reality, even
here
on planet Earth, in a cogent way. It's like somebody falling off
Mt.
Evidence, in which we can have an opinion about our dilemma, but
reversing
gravity or dreaming up a parachute to use during our fall is not
part of
the
world we all must live in. Give 10,000 years of future
technology, and
human
survival, maybe then.
Any theory of everithing that implies infinite many unverses in
compatible with everithing. Gods, miracles, psicquism,
telequinesia,
telepaty etc starting from the. monistic materialism, some
configurations of matter produce minds, thererfore under these
theories are infinite many variations of minds, not potentially.
They
are logical predictions of these theories.
These minds under monistic materialism are considered as matter
that
can reshape matter in a complex way. Some of these minds can create
second level realities in which they may act as gods, either making
use of extraordinary knowledge of reality in relation with other
less
advanced minds, for which they may appear as gods. or alternatively
they can simulate virtual realities in which accoding with monistic
materialism can simulate minds inside these second level simulated
realities.
These superior minds are free to change the realities that they
have
under partial control (in the first case) or under total control
(in
the second). So they can perform miracles and so on and so on.
We don´t know what is our level as minds in the multiverse,
therefore
everithing is theoretically possible even under this monistic
hypothesis. Everithing goes.
-----Original Message-----
From: Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 12:02 pm
Subject: Re: Atheist
2014-07-17 10:31 GMT+02:00, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>:
On 17 Jul 2014, at 01:00, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
The latest theories of everithing admit absolutely everithing.
Which one? What do you mean by "absolutely everything"?
they
are no longer materialistic. Either they are no-theories or
they allow
any interpretation anyone may like about the know and unknow
reality.
I really don't know what theories you refer too.
Any theory of everithing that implies infinite many unverses in
compatible with everithing. Gods, miracles, psicquism,
telequinesia,
telepaty etc starting from the. monistic materialism, some
configurations of matter produce minds, thererfore under these
theories are infinite many variations of minds, not potentially.
They
are logical predictions of these theories.
These minds under monistic materialism are considered as matter
that
can reshape matter in a complex way. Some of these minds can create
second level realities in which they may act as gods, either making
use of extraordinary knowledge of reality in relation with other
less
advanced minds, for which they may appear as gods. or alternatively
they can simulate virtual realities in which accoding with monistic
materialism can simulate minds inside these second level simulated
realities.
These superior minds are free to change the realities that they
have
under partial control (in the first case) or under total control
(in
the second). So they can perform miracles and so on and so on.
We don´t know what is our level as minds in the multiverse,
therefore
everithing is theoretically possible even under this monistic
hypothesis. Everithing goes.
In certain sense materialism has given up without being
conscious of
it. That is because its foundation is metaphysical and
metaphysics has
experimented a regression to the stone age, or at least to the
level
previous to the greek phylosophy.
That has begun since theology has been banished from academy, and
replaced by a social sort of authorianism.
It is normal for those wanting power to take over on the
fundamental
theories. It is bad and sad, but natural and usual. That's why
we must
be vigilant, and fight for a coming back to reason and
observation in
*all* fields, not just on God and health.
Bruno
2014-07-09 22:12 GMT+02:00, John Mikes <[email protected]>:
I apologize for taking a new title for this over-discussed
topic.
Somebody (sounds like Bruno, the fonts look like Brent) wrote:
"...let us do theology seriously instead of referring to fairy
tales.
You confirm what I said to John Clark. *Atheist* defend the
God of
the
bible. Read Plotinus, forget the bible, unless you find some
passage
you like and which inspire you, but that is private, don't
make that
public. "
I refer to the generality about 'atheists' in the passage. I
emphasize that I am no atheist in such a sense who IMO
requires 'a
god
to deny' (my vocabulary includes the term as 'denying' instead
of
'defending').
I simply exclude those facets which are beyond our reach at
present.
In speaking about Everything I think of an infinite complexity
of
components we cannot even understand (today) - nor the relations
between them ALL. We include SOME into our 'model of the
world' as of
yesterday without knowing if we are right.
In such sense even a (sane-minded) adilt can be an 'atheist'.
John M
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google
Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
it,
send an
email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to everything-
[email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Alberto.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
it, send
an
email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-
list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Alberto.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send
an
email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send
an
email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Alberto.
--
Alberto.
--
Alberto.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
