On 1/15/2015 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 14 Jan 2015, at 22:56, meekerdb wrote:
On 1/14/2015 12:34 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 1:32 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 1/14/2015 6:25 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
In Buddhism: Samantabhadra Buddha declares of itself:
"I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that exists. I am
the
cause of all that exists. I am the trunk of all that exists. I am the
foundation
of all that exists. I am the root of existence. I am "the core" because I
contain
all phenomena. I am "the seed" because I give birth to everything. I am "the
cause" because all comes from me. I am "the trunk" because the
ramifications of
every event sprout from me. I am "the foundation" because all abides in me.
I am
called "the root" because I am everything."
Various thinkers over time have, apparently through reason, come to a
similar
conclusion:
"Geometry existed before the creation, it is co-eternal with the mind of
God,
Geometry provided god with a model for creation, Geometry is God himself."
-- Kepler
"To all of us who hold the Christian belief that God is truth, anything
that is
true is a fact about God, and mathematics is a branch of theology." --
Hilda
Phoebe Hudson
"I would say with those who say ‘God is Love’, God is Love. But deep down
in me
I used to say that though God may be Love, God is Truth above all. If it is
possible for the human tongue to give the fullest description of God, I
have come
to the conclusion that God is Truth. Two years ago I went a step further
and
said that Truth is God. You will see the fine distinction between the two
statements, ‘God is Truth’ and ‘Truth is God’. I came to that conclusion
after a
continuous and relentless search after truth which began fifty years ago."
-- Gandhi
And how are all your examples different than "God is money" or "God is
power" or
"God is a bearded dude in the clouds" They are just instances of a simple
formula: "I think X is really important and deserving of your adulation. So God
is X"
No, they provide (potentially verifiable) answers to the question of what exists
beyond the physical reality and why it exists at all (assuming it does and is not an
illusion of consciousness), particularly those God definitions which you cut from your
reply.
Some people say "God is love", Bruno says "God is unprovable truths.",
Paul
Tillich said "God is whatever you value most." But just because
somebody
says "Unicorns are rhinocereses" doesn't mean I have to start believing
unicorns exist, or that that when I say unicorns don't exist I'm
denying the
existence of rhinocereses.
Do you believe in a source of reality beyond the apparent physical reality
we
find ourselves in now?
No. I don't "believe IN" anything. I entertain hypotheses.
So then you're merely entertaining the hypothesis that no theistic God exists, rather
than being a true atheist who would "believe IN" "no theistic god exists"
I don't believe any theistic God exists - and so I'm an a-theist.
Usually atheists believe that there is no theistic God. If you are agnostic, then let us
continue the research, and let us not decide in advance the degree of theistic-ness of
god. BTW, how would you define "theistic". If it means "santa Klaus", I am atheist too,
but consider that trivial and uninteresting. No serious theologian believes in Santa Klaus.
That's the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
And yes, many theologian are not serious, but this is due to the contingent fact that
people blasphemize all the time (i.e. use God for personal power purpose (the most
irreligious thing to do according to *many* theologian and normally all scientist).
I'd say MOST theologians are not serious by your measure of "serious". For example almost
all theologians assume God is a person.
Theology gives power. Fake theology gives fake power. The problem is that fake power
works better, in the short term, and needs much less effort, because it needs only
gullibility/lack of education and training in logic, where the non fake theology asks
for serious effort and work.
As a serious theologian, you should ask yourself why 'fake' theology gives power? Isn't
it because theology is assumed to provide specific moral and ethical norms: Don't eat
pork. Pray five times a day. Give ten percent of your income to the church....
I have a question, thinking about you being an a-theist. Is the God of Anselmus
theistic? Does Gödel's formalization of Anselmus formalize a theistic God?
If you mean the God whose existence St Anselm thought he had proven, no. I don't think
his proof is even consistent with "God" being a person.
In fact, if you are "only" an agnostic atheist, then it seems even more weird to me why
you have vocabulary problems in the field of theology.
I have a problem with it because it supports what you call "fake theology" and everybody
else just calls theology. You assume that your very abstract idea of "God" will displace
the bearded tyrant in the sky; but historically that has never happened. Abstract
theologians like Godel, Tillich, and Anselm are absorbed into the popular religion and
proclaimed to proven God exists, with no further explication of what kind of god they proved.
I have no problem using "toy theology" for what ideally arithmetically sound finite
creatures (machines, numbers) can eventually believe, and intuit, and observe, about
themselves and their possibilities. It is then obviously interesting to compare this
with what humans believes about themselves.
I don't think you will learn anything useful from this until you can also model within
arithmetic the evolutionary process - which accounts for most of how people think. And
that means you need to go from arithmetic through physics and biology to get to people.
That's why, while I find your project very interesting, I don't think it has any
revolutionary consequences.
Brent
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