I agree with that definition of freedom, which is in the same spirit as "between consenting adults" in a related sphere. And the law, in a democracy, is an attempt to codify that (although it frequently gets hijacked into moral crusades etc). The problem,even assuming honest people trying to formulate a fair set of laws, is where does your freedom impinge upon others'?
For example, you aren't necessarily free to make loud noises, even inside your own home, if that spoils the peace for your neighbours. But you may be free to put toxic chemicals into the environment, which will contribute to spoiling the entire world for your descendants (unless they can work out a techno-fix, at least). So, free speech - well, obviously that doesn't include shouting "fire!" but it should mean you can say whatever you like via normal communications channels, e.g. in private conversation, online, shouting on a street corner, in the papers, on TV... Whoa. Actually I don't think you should be allowed to say whatever you like on TV or in the papers. I think there should be some requirement that you can back up claims made, and that news is reported (relatively) impartially. Altho in practice people do say "what they like" on TV, or rather they are allowed say what the "commi authorities" (in our case corporate bosses) want to say. So they are mouthpieces, and money talks, if you work for a largre corp on TV you can say what the head of the corp wants you to, but have to slyly discredit opposing views. So make the Green Party look slightly silly whenever yuo can, spout the party line where possible, provide lots of soprt and reality shows, and mention that the weathermen can't predict a storm a week in advance, so can those climate change people really be trusted? Looks like Mr Blish was right. On 3 February 2015 at 12:47, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote: > Liz, while you are in the mood... > I have a good maxim for freedom (don't claim absolute inventorship): when > you are 'free' to do anything > without infringing into the freedom of others. > (Under the commis we formulated it differently: freedom means to feel free > to do anything that > had been allowed to do by the commi authorities). > Yet I am in trouble with FREE SPEACH. > I*dentifying it *will reduce its freedom. Not identifying, however, > will lead to misuse. Beyond the classic "FIRE" in a theatre. It is hard to > correlate it with the above ID > John M > of 'freedom'. > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 5:27 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> War is peace >> Freedom is slavery >> Ignorance is strength >> >> Did he have a hotline to the 21st century or what??? >> >> >> On 21 January 2015 at 10:00, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < >> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> >>> >>> Forget ball games. I wager that when the jihadists strike here in either >>> a series of small attacks or another 911, your side, for coddling the >>> jihadists will be held to account. And, sadly, people will say, "At least >>> under Bush we felt safe." >>> >>> Like any good fascist you take your propagandist tactics right from >>> Goebbels playbook. Just because I don't want get with your insane genocidal >>> clash of civilizations program does not mean that therefore I am "coddling" >>> jihadist criminals. Screw you and your attempt to pin responsibility on me >>> -- and everyone who does not buy into your extremist world views - for the >>> acts of violent criminals. >>> >>> If you really believe your own invective then you should be going off >>> yourself to fight your crusade... why aren't you? Are you a coward? Who >>> demands others go do the dying for your psychopathic desires >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Mon, Jan 19, 2015 7:21 pm >>> Subject: Re: Free Speech is not Free unless it is allowed for every >>> point of view >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> >>> >>Hmmm! Then you have wasted your companie's, valuable time bantering >>> with someone you don't like and can't control? Some software schmuck, you >>> must be. Where are your ethics, man? Oh, wait, I take that back, for most >>> progressives do not possess this attribute, only the hunger to control. >>> Well, mah trailer needs propane re-fuelin' and I gotta git down to thuh >>> liquer store before mama june kills me. Wee dawgies! Now yew git on and a >>> keep a cod'in and developin' whatever that is? P.S, the seahawks suck and >>> the pats will roll over yer candy asses. What do yew and the Pats have in >>> common? Ansdwer: Deflated balls. Bwah hah hah hah! Even Mama June bust out >>> laffin at that wun. >>> >>> Why would my company care if I take a few minutes here and there during >>> the day? It knows -- from working deployed, low defect, high performant >>> software -- that it gets excellent value from my services, which is why it >>> continues to have me (and others like me) fulfill them. This is also why >>> the globally preeminent technology companies I work for DO NOT -- AND WILL >>> NEVER -- higher incompetent angry windbags like you... who have an >>> overblown sense of their own entitlement coupled with a lack of any >>> valuable real skills. You have nothing of any value to exchange; your labor >>> is just not worth very much to them. >>> >>> P.S. The Seahawks won the game and are going to the Super Bowl. >>> Spectacular last five minutes and over time play on that game. >>> >>> But... Hey there goober, isn't it time for you to mosey on down to see >>> if your (government) check is in the mail box (delivered to you by our >>> socialist mail service). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> To: Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Mon, Jan 19, 2015 6:35 pm >>> Subject: Fw: Free Speech is not Free unless it is allowed for every >>> point of view >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>> *From:* spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> >>> >>Nupe. Basically you are explaining away the election losses and the >>> endless trail of middle class taxpayer dollars, to the blue state >>> governments, their government unions, and the underclass, who is content >>> with Mexican billionaire and Obola contributor, Carlos Slim Helu's cheapo >>> chump trak phones, welfare checks, food stamps, ghettos, hoods, and >>> barrios. What has changed is that from a political studies pov, enough of >>> the demographic of the white middle and working classes, who want to work >>> (unlike your crack and meth head friends), realize they have gotten burned >>> bad, by a political class that is neither interested in their financial >>> well being, nor their physical safety, from your Islamic State >>> sympathizers, like yourself. I see a time, fairly soon, when a plurality of >>> American residents, whether legally here or not will say to themselves, "at >>> least under Bushie I felt safe!" I probably care for the Bushes in US >>> politics on a scale somewhat less then yourself (hard to say since your >>> progie derangement must make cognitive thinking difficult at best for you), >>> but based on what is happening overseas, this day will arrive. Keep on >>> strumming your guitar dude, its supposedly therapeutic. >>> >>> Don't have the time (nor the desire) to respond to your delusional >>> oxycontin fueled rant in detail -- because like most progressives -- I am >>> at work, earning money for my family to live on. Not all of us can be Tea >>> Party welfare queens. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Mon, Jan 19, 2015 3:50 pm >>> Subject: Re: Free Speech is not Free unless it is allowed for every >>> point of view >>> >>> Anyone can look up the facts (over the last few election cycles). >>> If you add up all Blue states in one column and all red states in >>> another column the blue column of states turns out to be a net contributor >>> to the federal revenue; the red states are net recipients of federal tax >>> dollars. >>> Such simple mathematical averaging may be beyond your Tea Party math >>> skills however; so I can recognize why you are struggling with this... as >>> with so many concepts that require some actual thinking. >>> This pattern also holds when you do more micro analysis at the zipcode >>> level. The net result is that it is blue America that is actually >>> paying the bills, and working to make our country prosper; while it is red >>> America that is doing the whining and demanding war.... while living off of >>> those government checks.... like welfare queens. The Tea Party hates the >>> hand that is feeding it, which you got to admit is fairly ironic. >>> Oh, and Mitch it is turkeys like you that are getting stuffed... I know >>> it makes you mad as hell. Take some personal responsibility to better your >>> own life; it is not the fault of Islam or of those Mexicans laborers either >>> that you find yourself so marginalized. >>> -Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com >>> *Sent:* Monday, January 19, 2015 12:10 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: Free Speech is not Free unless it is allowed for every >>> point of view >>> >>> The state thing shows how fanatically blind you really are. Illinois, >>> prospering, and how's Detroit faring in Michigan? NY state rolling in cash? >>> Connecticut cashing in big? What about Red State cash flow? Texas, yes >>> indeed, the Dakotas, yep, so your hyperthyroid statements are specious, at >>> best. Under your gawd, Bamer, the rich have gotten so much richer, and they >>> poor get cellphones. Splendid! Also, if your godling is doing so great, >>> then why ask for 320 billion more for the federal budget? This will be in >>> his state of destruction message tomorrow night. Most blue state peoples >>> are now leaving for the South economically speaking where jobs are to be >>> had, because or conservative fiscal practices, which sorry to tell you, >>> actually work. Now this is for them blueboys that actually want to work. >>> Many who stay, are your kind of people, meth heads that steal from their >>> grandma's so as to feed their habit. That sad fact has become kind of >>> common in dear old Washington state, hasn't it? Lastly, Bamer protects the >>> super rich in both parties, so there's your oligarchy. The welfare >>> statement is your attempt at humor, or are you really this delusional in >>> real life? If anything, conservatives want to cut welfare rolls, while the >>> progressive party views then as captive voters who are dependent on the >>> graciousness of you fascists, so as to ensure the ballot boxers get >>> stuffed. Speaking of getting stuffed, why don't you? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Mon, Jan 19, 2015 2:18 pm >>> Subject: RE: Free Speech is not Free unless it is allowed for every >>> point of view >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [ >>> mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com >>> <everything-list@googlegroups.com?>] >>> *Sent:* Monday, January 19, 2015 10:49 AM >>> *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com >>> *Subject:* Re: Free Speech is not Free unless it is allowed for every >>> point of view >>> >>> Based on the US experience, the sales pitch that all is wonderful has >>> failed and keeps failing, simply because the selling doesn't live up to >>> reality. In the US we used to call this, Wrapping yourself up in the flag." >>> Or as the British Dr. Johnson once wrote, "Patriotism is the last refuge of >>> a scoundrel." In the US we have added an amended version of Doc Johnson's >>> statement, which is, "Calling racism is the new last refuge of a >>> scoundrel." Case in point is the reverend Al Sharpton who call racism at >>> every junction and if there isn't anything to talk about like a police >>> killing, he will make one up out of whole cloth, as he did with the Tawanna >>> Brawley incident years ago. He tends to take huge sums from big >>> corporations so as to avoid picketing and protestors outside company >>> headquarters. Needless to state, it has been profitable for him, >>> personally, without changing the corporate climate or the number of black >>> American's actually hired. As far as freedom goes, most people in the US >>> only care about it when its restricted for themselves, and, in any case, >>> most have zero to really say. The US is the same country whose voters would >>> sell their votes for free cell phones, food stamps (subsidized purchases), >>> and fatter welfare checks. I don't see this changing anytime soon and do >>> expect Mama Clinton, in the US to win the presidency in 2016. >>> >>> This stream of “consciousness” of yours provides a fascinating window >>> into the discombobulated processes at work in your brain, as it fires on >>> all four cylinders. It seems like you are trying to say something >>> important, but are having a lot of trouble forming cogent opinions. >>> Perhaps if instead of spending all these years angry at all those >>> identifiable “other” people for having “robbed” you of the life you “were >>> entitled” to, you had instead done something about it to improve your own >>> skills you would be better off. You Tea Party types always blaming other >>> people for your ills… and never doing anything of substance to take >>> personal responsibility. >>> As I pointed out the Blue states are the states that are actually paying >>> for the government; we are net contributors. On average Red states depend >>> on federal government largesse; e.g. a bunch of welfare recipients. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> >>> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Mon, Jan 19, 2015 1:30 pm >>> Subject: Re: Free Speech is not Free unless it is allowed for every >>> point of view >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 10:15 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Seconded (I am allowed to say that, right?) >>> >>> Of course it isn't just France. And some countries go one step further >>> and actively brainwash their citizens from an early age into thinking they >>> are wonderful, and thus try to prevent even the possibility of >>> "thoughtcrime". >>> >>> I completely agree with you and Chris on this. >>> >>> The tragic thing for me, as an European, is that the USA were the ones >>> leading the way in terms of free speech. Europe never adopted something as >>> strong as the first amendment. Europeans love to say the "free speech has >>> its limits", which is a nonsensical, in my opinion. >>> >>> I always assume that Europe would catch up with the USA on this. >>> Unfortunately, it seems that the opposite is happening. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 January 2015 at 17:06, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> It is sad to see, for France has such a heritage, but it seems there >>> is diminishing actual functioning Free Speech rights in France; when scores >>> of people are getting arrested and thrown into jail for unpopular free >>> speech, which in France has now become the new Orwellian thought crime of >>> “supporting terrorism”. >>> Either Free Speech applies to all; or it does not apply. If unpopular >>> – and even repugnant -- free speech is punished with long jail terms; then >>> the state sanctioned mechanisms are in place for destroying effective right >>> of free speech, which soon becomes free only when it reflects the desire of >>> those who rule. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to 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