On 2/3/2015 11:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
I agree with John. If consciousness had no third-person observable effects, it would be
an epiphenomenon. And then there is no way to explain why we're even having this
discussion about consciousness.
I'm not arguing that it has no observable effects. JKC says it's necessary for
intelligence. I'm arguing that might have been necessary for for the evolution of
intelligence starting from say fish. But that doesn't entail that is necessary for any
intelligent system.
If we build computers that discuss and question their own consciousness and qualia I'd
consider that proof enough that they are.
But is that the standard of intelligence? JKC argues intelligence=>consciousness. What
if they discuss and question their own consciousness, but say stupid things about it?
The bigger question, is what machines might be conscious yet unable to talk about,
reflect upon, or signal to us that they are in fact conscious? This requires a theory of
consciousness.
Exactly. That is my concern. Suppose we build an autonomous Mars Rover to do research.
We give it learning ability, so it must reflect on its experience and act intelligently.
Have we made a conscious being? Contrary to Bruno, I think there are kinds and degrees of
consciousness - just as there are kinds and degrees of intelligence.
Brent
Jason
On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:07 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 2/3/2015 10:00 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 meekerdb <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
>> If consciousness was just a lucky accident Evolution would
ensure that it
didn't exist for long.
> Only if it cost something to maintain consciousness
Not so. Mutations happen all the time and nearly all of them are harmful.
In most
animals If a mutation happens that renders it blind that will be a severe
handicap
and the animal will not live long enough to pass that mutated gene onto the
next
generation; but if it happens in a cave creature it's no handicap at all
and so it
will get into the next generation, the end result is that cave creatures
are not
only blind they don't even have eyes, and yet they survive just fine.
But it is biologically costly to make and maintain eyes.
In the same way if consciousness wasn't a byproduct of intelligence and
instead was
just something tacked on that didn't effect behavior (and of course renders
the
Turing Test ineffective) then a creature with a mutation that stopped the
consciousness mechanism from working would survive just as well as one
without the
mutation.
But maybe it was "tacked" on to integrate information processing from
different
independent modules, e.g. vision, language, touch,... which in different
developmental path, say AI, might have been organized in a hierarchy or
unified from
the start. The latter might even be more efficient, but evolution can't go
back and
start over, it can only take small steps of improvement.
Pretty soon nobody would be conscious, but I know for a fact that at least
one is.
So either Darwin was wrong or consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence.
I don't
think Darwin was wrong.
>> So carbon atoms are conscious but silicon atoms are not. Well...
I can't
prove that's wrong but I really think it is.
> If you think atoms are conscious you're more mystic than Bruno.
You're the one who was talking about a special connection between carbon and
consciousness not me.
I said carbon based life-forms, not carbon atoms. I'm sure we both agree
that
intelligence and consciousness come from the organization of atoms.
Brent
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