On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:40 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/3/2015 11:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > I agree with John. If consciousness had no third-person observable > effects, it would be an epiphenomenon. And then there is no way to explain > why we're even having this discussion about consciousness. > > > I'm not arguing that it has no observable effects. JKC says it's > necessary for intelligence. > Perhaps it is impossible to avoid for human-level intelligence (and probably lower levels of intelligence as well) I don't know but it is at least plausible. > I'm arguing that might have been necessary for for the evolution of > intelligence starting from say fish. But that doesn't entail that is > necessary for any intelligent system. > > > If we build computers that discuss and question their own consciousness > and qualia I'd consider that proof enough that they are. > > > But is that the standard of intelligence? JKC argues > intelligence=>consciousness. What if they discuss and question their own > consciousness, but say stupid things about it? > > Then the "intelligence bar" for consciousness is low or perhaps unrelated to intelligence. I think you can have consciousness without intelligence, but it is more dubious whether you could have human-level intelligence without consciousness. > The bigger question, is what machines might be conscious yet unable to > talk about, reflect upon, or signal to us that they are in fact conscious? > This requires a theory of consciousness. > > > Exactly. That is my concern. Suppose we build an autonomous Mars Rover > to do research. We give it learning ability, so it must reflect on its > experience and act intelligently. Have we made a conscious being? > Contrary to Bruno, I think there are kinds and degrees of consciousness - > just as there are kinds and degrees of intelligence. > Well the question "is something conscious?" is binary, like "is something alive?". However there is a great spectrum of possible living entities, and a massive gulf that separates the simplest life forms from the most complex life forms. I think the same is true of consciousness. The mars rover might be conscious, but its consciousness might be as simple as a bacterium's biology is compared to a human's. Jason > > Brent > > > > Jason > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:07 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 2/3/2015 10:00 AM, John Clark wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> If consciousness was just a lucky accident Evolution would >>>> ensure that it didn't exist for long. >>> >>> >>> > Only if it cost something to maintain consciousness >>> >> >> Not so. Mutations happen all the time and nearly all of them are >> harmful. In most animals If a mutation happens that renders it blind that >> will be a severe handicap and the animal will not live long enough to pass >> that mutated gene onto the next generation; but if it happens in a cave >> creature it's no handicap at all and so it will get into the next >> generation, the end result is that cave creatures are not only blind they >> don't even have eyes, and yet they survive just fine. >> >> >> But it is biologically costly to make and maintain eyes. >> >> In the same way if consciousness wasn't a byproduct of intelligence >> and instead was just something tacked on that didn't effect behavior (and >> of course renders the Turing Test ineffective) then a creature with a >> mutation that stopped the consciousness mechanism from working would >> survive just as well as one without the mutation. >> >> >> But maybe it was "tacked" on to integrate information processing from >> different independent modules, e.g. vision, language, touch,... which in >> different developmental path, say AI, might have been organized in a >> hierarchy or unified from the start. The latter might even be more >> efficient, but evolution can't go back and start over, it can only take >> small steps of improvement. >> >> Pretty soon nobody would be conscious, but I know for a fact that at >> least one is. So either Darwin was wrong or consciousness is a byproduct of >> intelligence. I don't think Darwin was wrong. >> >> >> So carbon atoms are conscious but silicon atoms are not. Well... I >>>> can't prove that's wrong but I really think it is. >>> >>> >>> > If you think atoms are conscious you're more mystic than Bruno. >>> >> >> You're the one who was talking about a special connection between >> carbon and consciousness not me. >> >> >> I said carbon based life-forms, not carbon atoms. I'm sure we both >> agree that intelligence and consciousness come from the organization of >> atoms. >> >> Brent >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
