OK, thanks. Well, yes, it's true that I hadn't heard the term except in places like this...
So anyway, the argument that the exact arrangement of the substrate isn't necessary for consciousness means that the same experiences could be generated by different arrangements of a given substrate, or perhaps completely different substrates (which may just be a statement of computational universality, or something similar?) That in itself doesn't make the substrate *unnecessary* to consciousness, surely? It's just saying that there isn't a one-to-one mapping, and (for example) silicon or carbon brains might in theory generate the same states. So a given conscious experience doesn't supervene on the exact same configuration of the substrate... So maybe it doesn't always matter to my experience if my brain has, say, 100 or 101 ions in a particular synapse (or 1000000 and 1000001 - I have no idea what figures are realistic). I'm not sure how you get from that to the non-primariness of matter, however. On 23 March 2015 at 13:17, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote: > My main point is that supervenience is not what you think it is. Some > people think supervenience means that a particular arrangement of a > substrate is necessary for consciousness. > > Of course, if you had never heard the term before, then it shouldn't > be a problem. > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:11:02PM +1300, LizR wrote: > > How else might one look at it? > > > > (And how about the "nub" -- is that correct?) > > > > On 23 March 2015 at 12:09, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au> > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 11:24:35AM +1300, LizR wrote: > > > > I've just revisited Russell's "The MGA revisited" in the hope of > > > > understanding it. Unfortunately my pretty little head doesn't like > being > > > > bothered with such matters despite "the spirit being willing" so I > found > > > my > > > > mind boggling a bit, as usual. > > > > > > > > However the nub seems to be something like this. > > > > > > > > If consciousness is the outcome of computation, > > > > and consciousness supervenes on physical states, > > > > then we can arrange for the same stream of consciousness to be > produced > > > by > > > > different physical states. > > > > > > > > For example, at some point in the computation we may have the value > 1 in > > > > two registers. There are combined using a logical AND operation, > giving > > > the > > > > result 1. But this could be substituted by a logical OR, or the > values > > > > ignored and the result put in by hand (or via a projected movie, or > > > cosmic > > > > rays, etc) and the same result would occur. > > > > > > > > But this contradicts the definition of supervenience (about which I > have > > > a > > > > question, see below). Hence consciousness (as computation) cannot > > > supervene > > > > on a physical process. > > > > > > > > A question about supervenience. > > > > > > > > In the classroom example, the question "does consciousness supervene > on > > > the > > > > class?" is answered no. Obviously consciousness is thought to > supervene > > > on > > > > people in the class, e.g. Alice and Bob (ignoring the MGA for now, at > > > > least). So consciousness supervenes on Alice, and separately on Bob > - but > > > > not on the class, even though Alice and Bob's consciousness > supervene on > > > > the class. > > > > > > > > Sorry, I got confused at this point. Does this simply mean that the > class > > > > has no overall single consciousness supervening on it - a "group > mind" as > > > > it were? > > > > > > > > > > That would be one way of looking at it. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > > Principal, High Performance Coders > > > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > > > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > > > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "Everything List" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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