Samiya, good answers. I would have liked to 'see' that ALL* false* messengers DO require worldly benefits - some may not. Jesus Christ did not - would you call the luxurious life of the Pope of Rome - his successor(?) - a proof for false messages?
Your replies are longer than I can go into at 94. Especially NOT to read further. Maybe 40-50 years ago I could have had a chance...But at that time, after having studied more than 1 religion (in practice as well) I was just losing my faith. That was the reason not to extend my interest into MORE (wider?) religious facets. One thing is for sure: I would have never accepted the brutal/violent punishments as in Sharia-law. I know, it was ubiquitous at those times, even for the next ~1,000 years, but I am against those ancient sadistic methods and even "lawful" killings. I believe humanity made some advance, at least in this respect and at some levels. I cannot condone the* 'faith' *of those who pleasure in beheadings, stonings, dismemberings, burning alive, no matter for what reasons, nor in a Supernatural of endless love, wisdom and care feeling satisfaction in such brutalities. Maybe I am just an old wimp. * Please excuse my ignorance: do Shiates 'read' the same Quran as Sunnis? * On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > John, please see my answers below your questions. > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 1:08 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Samiya, please allow me one (two?) little questions: >> >> -- How can you tell a 'real' interpreter of God's words from a pretender? >> -- and I do not only refer to the 'publication' of the entire Script, there >> may be VAST differences between practical interpretations of the rightfully >> published details, whatever is included in the authentic total. (Look at >> e.g. the political variations as 'religious' prescriptions, law systems, >> state-formats, stuff to learn about the world etc.) >> > > A real messenger/prophet/interpreter does not ask for any personal benefit > or remuneration. The pretenders seek worldly benefits. Following are quotes > from the preachings of some messengers: > Quoting Messenger Noah: http://quran.com/26/109 Sahih International > And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord > of the worlds. > Quoting Messenger Hud: http://quran.com/26/127 Sahih International > And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord > of the worlds. > Quoting Messenger Saleh: http://quran.com/26/145 Sahih International > And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord > of the worlds. > Quoting Messenger Lot: http://quran.com/26/164 Sahih International > And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord > of the worlds. > Quoting Messenger Shu'ayb: http://quran.com/26/180 Sahih International > And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord > of the worlds. > > > >> --Is there a reson to call "HIM" and not "HER"? >> > 1) We believe that God is above gender, but since God is referred to in > the Quran with the masculine pronouns, so we follow the Quran's preference > of pronouns for God. > 2) Though http://quran.com/4/1 states that we should revere the wombs, > but it clarifies in other places that worship is only for the ONLY God and > that the worship of female deities Satan-worship http://quran.com/4/117 . > http://quran.com/4/1 Sahih International > O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from > it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear > Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is > ever, over you, an Observer. > http://quran.com/4/116-120 Sahih International > Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what > is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with > Allah has certainly gone far astray. They call upon instead of Him none > but female [deities], and they [actually] call upon none but a rebellious > Satan. Whom Allah has cursed. For he had said, "I will surely take from > among Your servants a specific portion. And I will mislead them, and I > will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will > slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the > creation of Allah ." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah > has certainly sustained a clear loss. Satan promises them and arouses > desire in them. But Satan does not promise them except delusion. > > > >> As I learned (from you), there is no gender differentiation in Heavens, >> what I found VERY emlightening. >> > > Note: The Quran uses the term Heaven(s) [sama; pl:samawat] for > sky/space/cosmos. For the Hereafter, though the Heaven(s) and Earth will be > recreated, the term for the place of reward is Garden(s) [jannat], and the > term for the place of punishment is Fire [naar]. > > I speculate, but I do not know if there will or will not be any gender > differentiation in the Hereafter. Following is the basis of my speculation: > 1) Human male and female pair has been created from a single entity [ > http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-first-humans.html ]. > http://quran.com/4/1 Sahih International > O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from > it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear > Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is > ever, over you, an Observer. > http://quran.com/6/98 Sahih International > And it is He who produced you from one soul and [gave you] a place of > dwelling and of storage. We have detailed the signs for a people who > understand. > http://quran.com/7/189 Sahih International > It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that > he might dwell in security with her. And when he covers her, she carries a > light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both > invoke Allah , their Lord, "If You should give us a good [child], we will > surely be among the grateful." > 2) Verses in the Quran state that, in the Gardens of Eden, the righteous > will be reunited (dwell together) with their righteous ascendants, > descendants and azwaj ( which can either mean spouses / pairs / kinds). I > am more inclined to think it means soulmate. > http://quran.com/81/7 Sahih International > And when the souls are paired > http://quran.com/36/55-58 Sahih International > Indeed the companions of Paradise, that Day, will be amused in [joyful] > occupation - They and their spouses - in shade, reclining on adorned > couches. For them therein is fruit, and for them is whatever they request > [or wish] [And] "Peace," a word from a Merciful Lord. > http://quran.com/13/22-24 Sahih International > And those who are patient, seeking the countenance of their Lord, and > establish prayer and spend from what We have provided for them secretly and > publicly and prevent evil with good - those will have the good consequence > of [this] home - Gardens of perpetual residence; they will enter them > with whoever were righteous among their fathers, their spouses and their > descendants. And the angels will enter upon them from every gate, [saying], > "Peace > be upon you for what you patiently endured. And excellent is the final > home." > 3) Scientists theorise that mortals procreate as a means of achieving > immortality. If life in the Hereafter is immortal, then perhaps the purpose > to procreate is no longer needed, and therefore the genders. > I suppose we'll find out when we arrive there :) Lets hope we all make it > to the Gardens! The following links are of some verses regarding the > Hereafter that I've tried to understand through science: > http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/03/orientation-right-or-left.html > > http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/09/bliss-realm-magnificent.html > > http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/03/fuel-of-hell-humans-and-stones.html > > > >> (During the times of the caveman a female Creator (Mistress of the >> World?) was adored, because of the circumstances of producing new life. The >> 'male' role was lopsided and diminished in importance. "SHE" was the "BIG >> ONE". That changed as the mainly male exercised animal husbandry >> emlightened the bisexual proliferation of living creatures (and was applied >> to men, too). >> > > I suppose the answer above to why "HIM" and not "HER" addresses this as > well. > >> >> (A 3rd question out of order - forgive me please: since evolution, human >> development, ways of mental capacity and lifestyles are unlimited in time >> to come, does it make any reasonable sense to "close" the line of potential >> profets 1500 years ago, only 5 centuries after the previous one, when >> humanity MAY live for additional millennia(??) before the final judgement?) >> >> > > 1) Prophet & Messenger Muhammad was foretold by the previous scriptures, > and his arrival was expected by those who believed in the scriptures: > http://quran.com/5/19 Sahih International > O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make > clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, > lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a > warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. > And Allah is over all things competent. > > 2) It is an assumption that humanity has a long time to go before the > final judgement. Quran Chapter 21 reads: > 1 [The time of] their account has approached for the people, while they > are in heedlessness turning away. > 2 No mention comes to them anew from their Lord except that they listen > to it while they are at play > 3 With their hearts distracted. And those who do wrong conceal their > private conversation, [saying], "Is this [Prophet] except a human being > like you? So would you approach magic while you are aware [of it]?" > 4 The Prophet said, "My Lord knows whatever is said throughout the heaven > and earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." > 5 But they say, "[The revelation is but] a mixture of false dreams; > rather, he has invented it; rather, he is a poet. So let him bring us a > sign just as the previous [messengers] were sent [with miracles]." > 6 Not a [single] city which We destroyed believed before them, so will > they believe? > 7 And We sent not before you, [O Muhammad], except men to whom We > revealed [the message], so ask the people of the message if you do not know. > 8 And We did not make the prophets forms not eating food, nor were they > immortal [on earth]. > 9 Then We fulfilled for them the promise, and We saved them and whom We > willed and destroyed the transgressors. > 10 We have certainly sent down to you a Book in which is your mention. > Then will you not reason? > 11 And how many a city which was unjust have We shattered and produced > after it another people. > 12 And when its inhabitants perceived Our punishment, at once they fled > from it. > 13 [Some angels said], "Do not flee but return to where you were given > luxury and to your homes - perhaps you will be questioned." > 14 They said, "O woe to us! Indeed, we were wrongdoers." > 15 And that declaration of theirs did not cease until We made them [as] a > harvest [mowed down], extinguished [like a fire]. > 16 And We did not create the heaven and earth and that between them in > play. > 17 Had We intended to take a diversion, We could have taken it from [what > is] with Us - if [indeed] We were to do so. > > 18 Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and > thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you > describe. > 19 To Him belongs whoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those near > Him are not prevented by arrogance from His worship, nor do they tire. > 20 They exalt [Him] night and day [and] do not slacken. > 21 Or have men taken for themselves gods from the earth who resurrect > [the dead]? > 22 Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they > both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above > what they describe. > 23 He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned. > 24 Or have they taken gods besides Him? Say, [O Muhammad], "Produce your > proof. This [Qur'an] is the message for those with me and the message of > those before me." But most of them do not know the truth, so they are > turning away. > 25 And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to > him that, "There is no deity except Me, so worship Me." > 26 And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken a son." Exalted is He! > Rather, they are [but] honored servants. > 27 They cannot precede Him in word, and they act by His command. > 28 He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, > and they cannot intercede except on behalf of one whom He approves. And > they, from fear of Him, are apprehensive. > 29 And whoever of them should say, "Indeed, I am a god besides Him"- that > one We would recompense with Hell. Thus do We recompense the wrongdoers. > 30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the > earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every > living thing? Then will they not believe? > 31 And We placed within the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should > shift with them, and We made therein [mountain] passes [as] roads that they > might be guided. > 32 And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are > turning away. > 33 And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the > moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming. > 34 And We did not grant to any man before you eternity [on earth]; so if > you die - would they be eternal? > 35 Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good > as trial; and to Us you will be returned. > 36 And when those who disbelieve see you, [O Muhammad], they take you not > except in ridicule, [saying], "Is this the one who insults your gods?" And > they are, at the mention of the Most Merciful, disbelievers. > 37 Man was created of haste. I will show you My signs, so do not > impatiently urge Me. > 38 And they say, "When is this promise, if you should be truthful?" > 39 If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not avert > the Fire from their faces or from their backs and they will not be aided... > 40 Rather, it will come to them unexpectedly and bewilder them, and they > will not be able to repel it, nor will they be reprieved. > 41 And already were messengers ridiculed before you, but those who mocked > them were enveloped by what they used to ridicule. > 42 Say, "Who can protect you at night or by day from the Most Merciful?" > But they are, from the remembrance of their Lord, turning away. > 43 Or do they have gods to defend them other than Us? They are unable > [even] to help themselves, nor can they be protected from Us. > 44 But, [on the contrary], We have provided good things for these > [disbelievers] and their fathers until life was prolonged for them. Then do > they not see that We set upon the land, reducing it from its borders? So it > is they who will overcome? > 45 Say, "I only warn you by revelation." But the deaf do not hear the > call when they are warned. > 46 And if [as much as] a whiff of the punishment of your Lord should > touch them, they would surely say, "O woe to us! Indeed, we have been > wrongdoers." > 47 And We place the scales of justice for the Day of Resurrection, so no > soul will be treated unjustly at all. And if there is [even] the weight of > a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. And sufficient are We as accountant. > ... > 109 But if they turn away, then say, "I have announced to [all of] you > equally. And I know not whether near or far is that which you are promised. > 110 Indeed, He knows what is declared of speech, and He knows what you > conceal. > 111 And I know not; perhaps it is a trial for you and enjoyment for a > time." > 112 [The Prophet] has said, "My Lord, judge [between us] in truth. And > our Lord is the Most Merciful, the one whose help is sought against that > which you describe." > > I have not included verses 48-108 above. To read the entire chapter, > please go to: http://quran.com/21 > Samiya > > >> Apologies >> >> John Mikes >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> John wrote: 'Scriptures (all of them, from the pre-Hebrew ones to the >>> most recent ones) are HUMANLY written (published?) and some (e.g. the >>> Quran) only in ONE *human* language, even prohibiting a translation).' >>> >>> The Quran, revealed in Arabic, has been translated in several languages, >>> and even in the same language by several translators. Multiple translations >>> are available online on many websites, such as: >>> http://quran.com/ >>> http://corpus.quran.com/ >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/ >>> http://searchtruth.com/list.php >>> >>> According to the Quran, it is the Muslim belief that a series of >>> scriptures were revealed by divine decree for the guidance of mankind, the >>> last of which is the Quran, as Muhammad is the seal (last) of the series of >>> prophets [http://quran.com/33/40 ]. Though humans were able to make >>> changes in previous scriptures (possibly both in the revealed language as >>> well as translations), the arabic Quran is divinely guarded from changes [ >>> http://quran.com/15/9 ]. Translations of certain verses of the Quran >>> differ, and thus, the importance of trying to look up the original arabic >>> words and their range of meanings, and its usage across the Quran. >>> >>> Most of the scriptures we know have been orally transmitted and then >>> recorded (published) by humans, except possibly the Ten Commandments which >>> were given to Moses on stone tablets [http://quran.com/7/145 ]. But >>> that is besides the point. The scriptures were revealed to the human >>> prophets and messengers, in the language of the people they were addressing >>> [http://quran.com/14/4 ], and thus the copy of the scripture in its >>> revealed language is most likely the original source. There may be errors >>> in translation, therefore, I suggest the study of the original sources, >>> i.e. in the original language of revelation, if possible. >>> >>> It is also important to understand the difference between scripture >>> [divine revelations] and secondary sources, which are efforts to compile >>> teachings of the prophets that are not in the scripture, for example works >>> like Bhagwad Gita, Talmud, Hadith. Of course, there are many errors in >>> these recordings, which can be attributed to human memory or understanding, >>> or both, or may be even deliberate efforts to corrupt the teachings and >>> make additions to the religion. That the message of Hinduism, Judaism, >>> Christianity, Islam, and many other messages, have all suffered greatly >>> because followers have attached primary importance to such secondary >>> sources is quite evident from history. Vedas, Torah, Bible and Quran >>> emphasise upon Monotheism, while the beliefs and worship of the many sects >>> of Hindus, Jews, Christians and Muslims vary greatly. >>> >>> Personally, I see a lot of confusion on this list as well as elsewhere >>> between the primary teachings of a scripture and the practice of those who >>> profess to follow those religions. It is important to not to confuse the >>> two if one is seeking the truth for oneself. >>> >>> For your convenience, following are the verses I referenced above. You >>> can also look up multiple translations on >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/ >>> >>> http://quran.com/33/40 Pickthall >>> Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger >>> of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all >>> things. >>> >>> >>> http://quran.com/15/9 Pickthall >>> Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian. >>> >>> http://quran.com/7/145 Shakir >>> And We ordained for him in the tablets admonition of every kind and >>> clear explanation of all things; so take hold of them with firmness and >>> enjoin your people to take hold of what is best thereof; I will show you >>> the abode of the transgressors. >>> >>> http://quran.com/14/4 Sahih International >>> And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of >>> his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom >>> He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. >>> >>> >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:49 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Samiya, you sweetly fell into the trap of my polite sentence *(...smarter >>>> than me*). >>>> I did not mention "absolute" smart. And: I did not ask 'where God came >>>> from' - although in an eaarlier post I raised the question 'where (from >>>> what system) did the mentioned 'God' come from? >>>> >>>> A ask, however, Bruno for some explanation he may have about the term >>>> "God' he uses exrtensively and intensively - dispite of his many times >>>> claimed agnosticism. >>>> I referred to some 'alien(?) wisdom to re-evaluate out terms -anyway >>>> with the criticism that those (new) terms may fit into an alien (not our) >>>> system better. >>>> >>>> Scriptures (all of them, from the pre-Hebrew ones to the most recent >>>> ones) are HUMANLY written (published?) and some (e.g. the Quran) only in >>>> ONE *human* language, even prohibiting a translation). If, indeed, >>>> based on 'Godly' instructions, >>>> some 'mortals' (conveying the instructions) should have gotten some >>>> believable proof of the 'source' and understanding about the instructed >>>> texts. Should we beleieve that after completing any of those 'Scriptures' >>>> such influence stopped short and no correction occurred ever since? Those >>>> writing clerks should have exercised a super-human precision and >>>> understanding indeed, with a clear view of the Supernatural Mind suggesting >>>> the texts. >>>> >>>> *Most* (religious/political - they mix frequently) Scriptures comfort >>>> sadistic human pleasures, even prescribe such for 'violations' against >>>> their rules. Even the one considered among the 'meekest' (e.g. Hindy) burn >>>> widows at the funeral of the deceased husband etc. >>>> >>>> I feel it hard to believe (agnosticism?) that in ancient times humanity >>>> was that much smarter than after millenia of development into more advanced >>>> thinking techiques. >>>> Unless your (and Bruno's) Supernatural is indeed "supernatural", what >>>> should be substantiated at least. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 2:09 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> How is it possible to find someone absolutely 'smarter' when each one >>>>> knows/understands something more about something than others, and is less >>>>> informed about something than someone else? >>>>> The scriptures seem to be the only source of 'smarter than human' >>>>> wisdom. A critical yet humble study of ancient wisdom, doubting human >>>>> (mis)interpretations and (mis)applications, but having faith in the >>>>> timelessness of the message(s), searching in the original sources, and >>>>> sifting wisdom from it all, may just be what we need. Its always been with >>>>> us, perhaps we are just too arrogant/ignorant to use it, and thus wander >>>>> aimlessly, searching in vain?! >>>>> Whenever we see a building or any other object of human technology, we >>>>> assume that someone conceived, designed and then built it, and that it >>>>> needs to be maintained, or it ends up as a ruin. We cannot imagine that it >>>>> just 'appeared on its own'. We even wonder about the purpose or utility of >>>>> it. Yet, the idea of a God [Conceiver, Designer, Creator and Sustainer of >>>>> the Heavens and Earth] keeps getting rejected, as well as the Scriptures >>>>> [User Manual]. Why? Simply because we ask where God came from? Isn't that >>>>> ignorance leading to arrogance? A vicious circle of arrogance -> rejection >>>>> -> innovation -> experimentation -> failure -> suffering -> humility -> >>>>> resilience -> rebuilding -> arrogance -> ... >>>>> We are all in the same boat [Earth], sailing the same sea [Cosmos] and >>>>> the welfare of the boat and its passengers [everyone and everything on >>>>> planet Earth] is our collective responsibility and in our interest. We >>>>> have >>>>> to help each other understand that, if the journey is to be pleasant and >>>>> worthwhile! >>>>> Samiya >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:11 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> *Brent:* >>>>>> *your line * >>>>>> *"Communism is not a terrible idea - it works fine for families." * >>>>>> *i*s a cop-out. The discussion is not about some closely related >>>>>> peoples' lives, it is about a worldwide socio-economic political system - >>>>>> and you know it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I never dreamed of wealthy people giving up their wealth. Not to >>>>>> general welfare, not to any other worthy goal. A NEW SYSTEM has to be >>>>>> established, definitely on NEW TERMS, the question is: W H O can make >>>>>> it >>>>>> and W H O can estblish it? >>>>>> Not anyone from our rotten slave-driving capital/politico >>>>>> establishment. >>>>>> What if 'people' cannot be pesuaded to 'vote' against their interest? >>>>>> if those millions turn out to be worthless? if - horribile dictu - VOTERS >>>>>> start to *T H I N K ? * >>>>>> *For starters: * when there will be a "NON" vote? (better: NO WAY >>>>>> vote). >>>>>> I entertained the stupid idea as well to the arrival of powerful >>>>>> aliens with more wisdom than Earthlings and install a new way of >>>>>> thinking. >>>>>> The result was: >>>>>> that could be no better than the present one, implementing new, but >>>>>> not becessarily better patterns (for us). We could corrupt those ideas in >>>>>> no time. >>>>>> Or: those would be useless under our circumstances. >>>>>> Hence my search for someone smarter than me. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 4:15 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/4/2015 6:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:10 PM, John Mikes <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TELMO: >>>>>>>> I did not expect from you to point to the 2 centuries old obsolete >>>>>>>> and theoretical exercise of Marx-Engels (irrespective of Lenin's >>>>>>>> intermitted LATER speculations) as "blueprint" for a (still?) viable(?) >>>>>>>> political system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think it was ever viable, and I don't think it's relevant >>>>>>> to the current times, as it is based on too many assumption from an era >>>>>>> that is long gone (early Industrialism). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I mean is, when people use the word "communism", there is a >>>>>>> document that describes precisely what this word is supposed to mean. A >>>>>>> blueprint for communism. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do think that Marx-Engels correctly identified social problems >>>>>>> that remain being problems to this day, namely the self-reinforcing >>>>>>> nature >>>>>>> of wealth inequality. The issue is that their proposed solution seems to >>>>>>> equalize society by throwing the majority of people into extreme poverty >>>>>>> and servitude. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It never got further than a tyranny of 'leftish-sounding' slogans >>>>>>>> by pretenders. As the original authors dreamed it up, it never (and >>>>>>>> nowhere) did get off from the ground. >>>>>>>> I know, I lived in a so called "Peoples' Democracy" (Called 'commi' >>>>>>>> system - ha ha) which was neither "peoples'" nor democracy. Nor >>>>>>>> Marxist, >>>>>>>> nor Leninist. >>>>>>>> It was a Stalinist tyranny. And Maoist, Pol-Pot, plus a >>>>>>>> KimIrSen-istic one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would be very interested in any story you had to share about >>>>>>> those times. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree that these societies never achieved anything resembling >>>>>>> what Marx proposed. The remaining communists of today tend to argue that >>>>>>> all of past communist movements were not sincere in their motivations. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> might very well be true, but even then it is an important piece of >>>>>>> information on human nature. If we are trying to get from A -> B and we >>>>>>> always stumble on the same horrors along the way, maybe the plan is just >>>>>>> not viable for this world. So far we have learned that either communism >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> a terrible idea or communist revolutions always end up being hijacked by >>>>>>> sociopaths. To be honest, I think both are true. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Communism is not a terrible idea - it works fine for families. A >>>>>>> lot of political problems come from trying to extend ethics that evolved >>>>>>> for families and small tribes to nation states of millions of unrelated >>>>>>> people. Capitalism has problems from the same source. Owning a flint >>>>>>> spearhead you made is unproblematic. If you own it you can prohibit its >>>>>>> use, sell it, bequeath it, etc. But when this idea was extended to >>>>>>> owning >>>>>>> land it created problems. John Locke thought owning land was an >>>>>>> oxymoron...you could only "own" the temporary use of land. Didn't >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> for hunter-gatherers, but it was problem that had to be solved for >>>>>>> agricultural society. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That now a lot the world's GDP comes from capital has created the >>>>>>> same kinds of questions about ownership of capital. Given that r>g in >>>>>>> Piketty's analysis, is it a good idea to allow the Koch brothers to >>>>>>> inherit >>>>>>> a billion dollar business (that their father built by drilling for >>>>>>> Stalin). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Capitalism - in my view an advanced form of slavery, following >>>>>>>> feudalism - started to destroy the entire human experiment on this >>>>>>>> Globe - >>>>>>>> way before the "warming" entered the picture. >>>>>>>> It never 'faced' a competition of any 'socialistic' challenger. It >>>>>>>> succumbbed to the authoritarian religious tyrannies (brutal and >>>>>>>> violent, or >>>>>>>> just retracting and philosophical). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As with communism, there is a big gap between the theory and the >>>>>>> implementation. "Advanced form of slavery" might be a way to put it, >>>>>>> but an >>>>>>> even more cynical view would be that there's always been slavery to some >>>>>>> degree. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I believe that the big challenge that we face is how to move to a >>>>>>> jobless society. Worse, I think this transition already started but >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> is still no political will to admit it. Robotics and AI are Marx's worse >>>>>>> nightmare. In the limit, the number of employees required by a business >>>>>>> will tend to zero, while the ability of a business to provide goods for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> rest of us keeps being more and more leveraged by technological advance. >>>>>>> One of the realities about the current economic crises that few are >>>>>>> willing >>>>>>> to admit: there simply are no longer jobs for everyone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the best idea that we have so far is the universal flat >>>>>>> salary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The trouble with that is that when everyone has the same income >>>>>>> nobody feels rich...and people like to feel rich. It's Nietzsche's >>>>>>> "will >>>>>>> to power". So people who have $100 billion don't want to give up $99 >>>>>>> billion to the general welfare, even though it would make the world >>>>>>> better >>>>>>> and make no discernible difference in their life style. So they instead >>>>>>> use a few billion to persuade people to vote for politicians who won't >>>>>>> tax >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
