John, I'll try to answer as briefly as possible. Please see below On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:03 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote:
> Samiya, good answers. I would have liked to 'see' that ALL* false* > messengers DO require worldly benefits - some may not. Jesus Christ did not > - > We believe that Jesus was a true Messenger of God. http://quran.com/2/87 Sahih International And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed. http://quran.com/2/136 Sahih International Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." http://quran.com/2/253 Sahih International Those messengers - some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends. http://quran.com/3/45 Sahih International [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ]. http://quran.com/3/59 Sahih International Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. http://quran.com/4/157 Sahih International And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Concordance of verses about Jesus (Isa) in the Quran: http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=Isa > > would you call the luxurious life of the Pope of Rome - his successor(?) - > a proof for false messages? > We believe the basic teachings of the Paul and his successors are against the letter and spirit of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus came to confirm the Law and to explain its wisdom, so that it is upheld with the correct spirit, and not in a half-hearted manner. Jesus taught Monotheism and to keep duty whole-heartedly. Yet, Paul did away with the Law and started Jesus-worship. Have you visited the Vatican? Its full of symbols of polytheism, particularly of ancient Egypt, including the Obelisk right in the middle of St. Peter's Square. Consider the following two verses from the Bible: http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-4.htm *New International Version* "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm *New International Version * "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Will Jesus allow St. Paul to enter the Kingdom of Heaven: http://can-you-answer.com/CanChristiansAnswer/canChrisAns.htm > Your replies are longer than I can go into at 94. Especially NOT to read > further. > Maybe 40-50 years ago I could have had a chance...But at that time, after > having studied more than 1 religion (in practice as well) I was just losing > my faith. That was the reason not to extend my interest into MORE (wider?) > religious facets. > > One thing is for sure: I would have never accepted the brutal/violent > punishments as in Sharia-law. I know, it was ubiquitous at those times, > even for the next ~1,000 years, but I am against those ancient sadistic > methods and even "lawful" killings. I believe humanity made some advance, > at least in this respect and at some levels. > I cannot condone the* 'faith' *of those who pleasure in beheadings, > stonings, dismemberings, burning alive, no matter for what reasons, nor in > a Supernatural of endless love, wisdom and care feeling satisfaction in > such brutalities. > > Maybe I am just an old wimp. > * > Please excuse my ignorance: do Shiates 'read' the same Quran as Sunnis? > Yes, they do read the same arabic Quran, though they differ in some beliefs, which leads to them being different sects. It is important to bear in mind that all religions have sects in them. In fact, two of the world's great religions: Judaism and Christianity both read the same book: What the Christians refer to as the Old Testament are the books which were written before Jesus. [ http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-difference-between-the-torah-and-the-old-testament-in-the-catholic-bible ] Samiya * > > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> John, please see my answers below your questions. >> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 1:08 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Samiya, please allow me one (two?) little questions: >>> >>> -- How can you tell a 'real' interpreter of God's words from a >>> pretender? -- and I do not only refer to the 'publication' of the entire >>> Script, there may be VAST differences between practical interpretations of >>> the rightfully published details, whatever is included in the authentic >>> total. (Look at e.g. the political variations as 'religious' prescriptions, >>> law systems, state-formats, stuff to learn about the world etc.) >>> >> >> A real messenger/prophet/interpreter does not ask for any personal >> benefit or remuneration. The pretenders seek worldly benefits. Following >> are quotes from the preachings of some messengers: >> Quoting Messenger Noah: http://quran.com/26/109 Sahih International >> And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord >> of the worlds. >> Quoting Messenger Hud: http://quran.com/26/127 Sahih International >> And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord >> of the worlds. >> Quoting Messenger Saleh: http://quran.com/26/145 Sahih International >> And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord >> of the worlds. >> Quoting Messenger Lot: http://quran.com/26/164 Sahih International >> And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord >> of the worlds. >> Quoting Messenger Shu'ayb: http://quran.com/26/180 Sahih International >> And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord >> of the worlds. >> >> >> >>> --Is there a reson to call "HIM" and not "HER"? >>> >> 1) We believe that God is above gender, but since God is referred to in >> the Quran with the masculine pronouns, so we follow the Quran's preference >> of pronouns for God. >> 2) Though http://quran.com/4/1 states that we should revere the wombs, >> but it clarifies in other places that worship is only for the ONLY God and >> that the worship of female deities Satan-worship http://quran.com/4/117 >> . >> http://quran.com/4/1 Sahih International >> O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from >> it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear >> Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is >> ever, over you, an Observer. >> http://quran.com/4/116-120 Sahih International >> Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what >> is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with >> Allah has certainly gone far astray. They call upon instead of Him none >> but female [deities], and they [actually] call upon none but a rebellious >> Satan. Whom Allah has cursed. For he had said, "I will surely take from >> among Your servants a specific portion. And I will mislead them, and I >> will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will >> slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the >> creation of Allah ." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah >> has certainly sustained a clear loss. Satan promises them and arouses >> desire in them. But Satan does not promise them except delusion. >> >> >> >>> As I learned (from you), there is no gender differentiation in Heavens, >>> what I found VERY emlightening. >>> >> >> Note: The Quran uses the term Heaven(s) [sama; pl:samawat] for >> sky/space/cosmos. For the Hereafter, though the Heaven(s) and Earth will be >> recreated, the term for the place of reward is Garden(s) [jannat], and the >> term for the place of punishment is Fire [naar]. >> >> I speculate, but I do not know if there will or will not be any gender >> differentiation in the Hereafter. Following is the basis of my speculation: >> 1) Human male and female pair has been created from a single entity [ >> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-first-humans.html ]. >> http://quran.com/4/1 Sahih International >> O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from >> it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear >> Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is >> ever, over you, an Observer. >> http://quran.com/6/98 Sahih International >> And it is He who produced you from one soul and [gave you] a place of >> dwelling and of storage. We have detailed the signs for a people who >> understand. >> http://quran.com/7/189 Sahih International >> It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that >> he might dwell in security with her. And when he covers her, she carries a >> light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both >> invoke Allah , their Lord, "If You should give us a good [child], we will >> surely be among the grateful." >> 2) Verses in the Quran state that, in the Gardens of Eden, the righteous >> will be reunited (dwell together) with their righteous ascendants, >> descendants and azwaj ( which can either mean spouses / pairs / kinds). I >> am more inclined to think it means soulmate. >> http://quran.com/81/7 Sahih International >> And when the souls are paired >> http://quran.com/36/55-58 Sahih International >> Indeed the companions of Paradise, that Day, will be amused in [joyful] >> occupation - They and their spouses - in shade, reclining on adorned >> couches. For them therein is fruit, and for them is whatever they >> request [or wish] [And] "Peace," a word from a Merciful Lord. >> http://quran.com/13/22-24 Sahih International >> And those who are patient, seeking the countenance of their Lord, and >> establish prayer and spend from what We have provided for them secretly and >> publicly and prevent evil with good - those will have the good consequence >> of [this] home - Gardens of perpetual residence; they will enter them >> with whoever were righteous among their fathers, their spouses and their >> descendants. And the angels will enter upon them from every gate, [saying], >> "Peace >> be upon you for what you patiently endured. And excellent is the final >> home." >> 3) Scientists theorise that mortals procreate as a means of achieving >> immortality. If life in the Hereafter is immortal, then perhaps the purpose >> to procreate is no longer needed, and therefore the genders. >> I suppose we'll find out when we arrive there :) Lets hope we all make it >> to the Gardens! The following links are of some verses regarding the >> Hereafter that I've tried to understand through science: >> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/03/orientation-right-or-left.html >> >> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/09/bliss-realm-magnificent.html >> >> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/03/fuel-of-hell-humans-and-stones.html >> >> >> >>> (During the times of the caveman a female Creator (Mistress of the >>> World?) was adored, because of the circumstances of producing new life. The >>> 'male' role was lopsided and diminished in importance. "SHE" was the "BIG >>> ONE". That changed as the mainly male exercised animal husbandry >>> emlightened the bisexual proliferation of living creatures (and was applied >>> to men, too). >>> >> >> I suppose the answer above to why "HIM" and not "HER" addresses this as >> well. >> >>> >>> (A 3rd question out of order - forgive me please: since evolution, human >>> development, ways of mental capacity and lifestyles are unlimited in time >>> to come, does it make any reasonable sense to "close" the line of potential >>> profets 1500 years ago, only 5 centuries after the previous one, when >>> humanity MAY live for additional millennia(??) before the final judgement?) >>> >>> >> >> 1) Prophet & Messenger Muhammad was foretold by the previous scriptures, >> and his arrival was expected by those who believed in the scriptures: >> http://quran.com/5/19 Sahih International >> O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make >> clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, >> lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a >> warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. >> And Allah is over all things competent. >> >> 2) It is an assumption that humanity has a long time to go before the >> final judgement. Quran Chapter 21 reads: >> 1 [The time of] their account has approached for the people, while they >> are in heedlessness turning away. >> 2 No mention comes to them anew from their Lord except that they listen >> to it while they are at play >> 3 With their hearts distracted. And those who do wrong conceal their >> private conversation, [saying], "Is this [Prophet] except a human being >> like you? So would you approach magic while you are aware [of it]?" >> 4 The Prophet said, "My Lord knows whatever is said throughout the >> heaven and earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." >> 5 But they say, "[The revelation is but] a mixture of false dreams; >> rather, he has invented it; rather, he is a poet. So let him bring us a >> sign just as the previous [messengers] were sent [with miracles]." >> 6 Not a [single] city which We destroyed believed before them, so will >> they believe? >> 7 And We sent not before you, [O Muhammad], except men to whom We >> revealed [the message], so ask the people of the message if you do not know. >> 8 And We did not make the prophets forms not eating food, nor were they >> immortal [on earth]. >> 9 Then We fulfilled for them the promise, and We saved them and whom We >> willed and destroyed the transgressors. >> 10 We have certainly sent down to you a Book in which is your mention. >> Then will you not reason? >> 11 And how many a city which was unjust have We shattered and produced >> after it another people. >> 12 And when its inhabitants perceived Our punishment, at once they fled >> from it. >> 13 [Some angels said], "Do not flee but return to where you were given >> luxury and to your homes - perhaps you will be questioned." >> 14 They said, "O woe to us! Indeed, we were wrongdoers." >> 15 And that declaration of theirs did not cease until We made them [as] >> a harvest [mowed down], extinguished [like a fire]. >> 16 And We did not create the heaven and earth and that between them in >> play. >> 17 Had We intended to take a diversion, We could have taken it from >> [what is] with Us - if [indeed] We were to do so. >> >> 18 Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and >> thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you >> describe. >> 19 To Him belongs whoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those >> near Him are not prevented by arrogance from His worship, nor do they tire. >> 20 They exalt [Him] night and day [and] do not slacken. >> 21 Or have men taken for themselves gods from the earth who resurrect >> [the dead]? >> 22 Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they >> both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above >> what they describe. >> 23 He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned. >> 24 Or have they taken gods besides Him? Say, [O Muhammad], "Produce your >> proof. This [Qur'an] is the message for those with me and the message of >> those before me." But most of them do not know the truth, so they are >> turning away. >> 25 And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to >> him that, "There is no deity except Me, so worship Me." >> 26 And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken a son." Exalted is He! >> Rather, they are [but] honored servants. >> 27 They cannot precede Him in word, and they act by His command. >> 28 He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, >> and they cannot intercede except on behalf of one whom He approves. And >> they, from fear of Him, are apprehensive. >> 29 And whoever of them should say, "Indeed, I am a god besides Him"- >> that one We would recompense with Hell. Thus do We recompense the >> wrongdoers. >> 30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the >> earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every >> living thing? Then will they not believe? >> 31 And We placed within the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should >> shift with them, and We made therein [mountain] passes [as] roads that they >> might be guided. >> 32 And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, >> are turning away. >> 33 And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the >> moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming. >> 34 And We did not grant to any man before you eternity [on earth]; so if >> you die - would they be eternal? >> 35 Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good >> as trial; and to Us you will be returned. >> 36 And when those who disbelieve see you, [O Muhammad], they take you >> not except in ridicule, [saying], "Is this the one who insults your gods?" >> And they are, at the mention of the Most Merciful, disbelievers. >> 37 Man was created of haste. I will show you My signs, so do not >> impatiently urge Me. >> 38 And they say, "When is this promise, if you should be truthful?" >> 39 If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not avert >> the Fire from their faces or from their backs and they will not be aided... >> 40 Rather, it will come to them unexpectedly and bewilder them, and they >> will not be able to repel it, nor will they be reprieved. >> 41 And already were messengers ridiculed before you, but those who >> mocked them were enveloped by what they used to ridicule. >> 42 Say, "Who can protect you at night or by day from the Most Merciful?" >> But they are, from the remembrance of their Lord, turning away. >> 43 Or do they have gods to defend them other than Us? They are unable >> [even] to help themselves, nor can they be protected from Us. >> 44 But, [on the contrary], We have provided good things for these >> [disbelievers] and their fathers until life was prolonged for them. Then do >> they not see that We set upon the land, reducing it from its borders? So it >> is they who will overcome? >> 45 Say, "I only warn you by revelation." But the deaf do not hear the >> call when they are warned. >> 46 And if [as much as] a whiff of the punishment of your Lord should >> touch them, they would surely say, "O woe to us! Indeed, we have been >> wrongdoers." >> 47 And We place the scales of justice for the Day of Resurrection, so no >> soul will be treated unjustly at all. And if there is [even] the weight of >> a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. And sufficient are We as accountant. >> ... >> 109 But if they turn away, then say, "I have announced to [all of] you >> equally. And I know not whether near or far is that which you are promised. >> 110 Indeed, He knows what is declared of speech, and He knows what you >> conceal. >> 111 And I know not; perhaps it is a trial for you and enjoyment for a >> time." >> 112 [The Prophet] has said, "My Lord, judge [between us] in truth. And >> our Lord is the Most Merciful, the one whose help is sought against that >> which you describe." >> >> I have not included verses 48-108 above. To read the entire chapter, >> please go to: http://quran.com/21 >> Samiya >> >> >>> Apologies >>> >>> John Mikes >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> John wrote: 'Scriptures (all of them, from the pre-Hebrew ones to the >>>> most recent ones) are HUMANLY written (published?) and some (e.g. the >>>> Quran) only in ONE *human* language, even prohibiting a translation).' >>>> >>>> The Quran, revealed in Arabic, has been translated in several >>>> languages, and even in the same language by several translators. Multiple >>>> translations are available online on many websites, such as: >>>> http://quran.com/ >>>> http://corpus.quran.com/ >>>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/ >>>> http://searchtruth.com/list.php >>>> >>>> According to the Quran, it is the Muslim belief that a series of >>>> scriptures were revealed by divine decree for the guidance of mankind, the >>>> last of which is the Quran, as Muhammad is the seal (last) of the series of >>>> prophets [http://quran.com/33/40 ]. Though humans were able to make >>>> changes in previous scriptures (possibly both in the revealed language as >>>> well as translations), the arabic Quran is divinely guarded from changes [ >>>> http://quran.com/15/9 ]. Translations of certain verses of the Quran >>>> differ, and thus, the importance of trying to look up the original arabic >>>> words and their range of meanings, and its usage across the Quran. >>>> >>>> Most of the scriptures we know have been orally transmitted and then >>>> recorded (published) by humans, except possibly the Ten Commandments which >>>> were given to Moses on stone tablets [http://quran.com/7/145 ]. But >>>> that is besides the point. The scriptures were revealed to the human >>>> prophets and messengers, in the language of the people they were addressing >>>> [http://quran.com/14/4 ], and thus the copy of the scripture in its >>>> revealed language is most likely the original source. There may be errors >>>> in translation, therefore, I suggest the study of the original sources, >>>> i.e. in the original language of revelation, if possible. >>>> >>>> It is also important to understand the difference between scripture >>>> [divine revelations] and secondary sources, which are efforts to compile >>>> teachings of the prophets that are not in the scripture, for example works >>>> like Bhagwad Gita, Talmud, Hadith. Of course, there are many errors in >>>> these recordings, which can be attributed to human memory or understanding, >>>> or both, or may be even deliberate efforts to corrupt the teachings and >>>> make additions to the religion. That the message of Hinduism, Judaism, >>>> Christianity, Islam, and many other messages, have all suffered greatly >>>> because followers have attached primary importance to such secondary >>>> sources is quite evident from history. Vedas, Torah, Bible and Quran >>>> emphasise upon Monotheism, while the beliefs and worship of the many sects >>>> of Hindus, Jews, Christians and Muslims vary greatly. >>>> >>>> Personally, I see a lot of confusion on this list as well as elsewhere >>>> between the primary teachings of a scripture and the practice of those who >>>> profess to follow those religions. It is important to not to confuse the >>>> two if one is seeking the truth for oneself. >>>> >>>> For your convenience, following are the verses I referenced above. You >>>> can also look up multiple translations on >>>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/ >>>> >>>> http://quran.com/33/40 Pickthall >>>> Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the >>>> messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of >>>> all things. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://quran.com/15/9 Pickthall >>>> Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its >>>> Guardian. >>>> >>>> http://quran.com/7/145 Shakir >>>> And We ordained for him in the tablets admonition of every kind and >>>> clear explanation of all things; so take hold of them with firmness and >>>> enjoin your people to take hold of what is best thereof; I will show you >>>> the abode of the transgressors. >>>> >>>> http://quran.com/14/4 Sahih International >>>> And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of >>>> his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom >>>> He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the >>>> Wise. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Samiya >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:49 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Samiya, you sweetly fell into the trap of my polite sentence *(...smarter >>>>> than me*). >>>>> I did not mention "absolute" smart. And: I did not ask 'where God came >>>>> from' - although in an eaarlier post I raised the question 'where (from >>>>> what system) did the mentioned 'God' come from? >>>>> >>>>> A ask, however, Bruno for some explanation he may have about the term >>>>> "God' he uses exrtensively and intensively - dispite of his many times >>>>> claimed agnosticism. >>>>> I referred to some 'alien(?) wisdom to re-evaluate out terms -anyway >>>>> with the criticism that those (new) terms may fit into an alien (not our) >>>>> system better. >>>>> >>>>> Scriptures (all of them, from the pre-Hebrew ones to the most recent >>>>> ones) are HUMANLY written (published?) and some (e.g. the Quran) only in >>>>> ONE *human* language, even prohibiting a translation). If, indeed, >>>>> based on 'Godly' instructions, >>>>> some 'mortals' (conveying the instructions) should have gotten some >>>>> believable proof of the 'source' and understanding about the instructed >>>>> texts. Should we beleieve that after completing any of those 'Scriptures' >>>>> such influence stopped short and no correction occurred ever since? Those >>>>> writing clerks should have exercised a super-human precision and >>>>> understanding indeed, with a clear view of the Supernatural Mind >>>>> suggesting >>>>> the texts. >>>>> >>>>> *Most* (religious/political - they mix frequently) Scriptures comfort >>>>> sadistic human pleasures, even prescribe such for 'violations' against >>>>> their rules. Even the one considered among the 'meekest' (e.g. Hindy) >>>>> burn >>>>> widows at the funeral of the deceased husband etc. >>>>> >>>>> I feel it hard to believe (agnosticism?) that in ancient times >>>>> humanity was that much smarter than after millenia of development into >>>>> more >>>>> advanced thinking techiques. >>>>> Unless your (and Bruno's) Supernatural is indeed "supernatural", what >>>>> should be substantiated at least. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 2:09 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> John, >>>>>> How is it possible to find someone absolutely 'smarter' when each one >>>>>> knows/understands something more about something than others, and is less >>>>>> informed about something than someone else? >>>>>> The scriptures seem to be the only source of 'smarter than human' >>>>>> wisdom. A critical yet humble study of ancient wisdom, doubting human >>>>>> (mis)interpretations and (mis)applications, but having faith in the >>>>>> timelessness of the message(s), searching in the original sources, and >>>>>> sifting wisdom from it all, may just be what we need. Its always been >>>>>> with >>>>>> us, perhaps we are just too arrogant/ignorant to use it, and thus wander >>>>>> aimlessly, searching in vain?! >>>>>> Whenever we see a building or any other object of human technology, >>>>>> we assume that someone conceived, designed and then built it, and that it >>>>>> needs to be maintained, or it ends up as a ruin. We cannot imagine that >>>>>> it >>>>>> just 'appeared on its own'. We even wonder about the purpose or utility >>>>>> of >>>>>> it. Yet, the idea of a God [Conceiver, Designer, Creator and Sustainer of >>>>>> the Heavens and Earth] keeps getting rejected, as well as the Scriptures >>>>>> [User Manual]. Why? Simply because we ask where God came from? Isn't that >>>>>> ignorance leading to arrogance? A vicious circle of arrogance -> >>>>>> rejection >>>>>> -> innovation -> experimentation -> failure -> suffering -> humility -> >>>>>> resilience -> rebuilding -> arrogance -> ... >>>>>> We are all in the same boat [Earth], sailing the same sea [Cosmos] >>>>>> and the welfare of the boat and its passengers [everyone and everything >>>>>> on >>>>>> planet Earth] is our collective responsibility and in our interest. We >>>>>> have >>>>>> to help each other understand that, if the journey is to be pleasant and >>>>>> worthwhile! >>>>>> Samiya >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:11 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> *Brent:* >>>>>>> *your line * >>>>>>> *"Communism is not a terrible idea - it works fine for families." * >>>>>>> *i*s a cop-out. The discussion is not about some closely related >>>>>>> peoples' lives, it is about a worldwide socio-economic political system >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> and you know it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I never dreamed of wealthy people giving up their wealth. Not to >>>>>>> general welfare, not to any other worthy goal. A NEW SYSTEM has to be >>>>>>> established, definitely on NEW TERMS, the question is: W H O can >>>>>>> make it >>>>>>> and W H O can estblish it? >>>>>>> Not anyone from our rotten slave-driving capital/politico >>>>>>> establishment. >>>>>>> What if 'people' cannot be pesuaded to 'vote' against their >>>>>>> interest? if those millions turn out to be worthless? if - horribile >>>>>>> dictu >>>>>>> - VOTERS start to *T H I N K ? * >>>>>>> *For starters: * when there will be a "NON" vote? (better: NO WAY >>>>>>> vote). >>>>>>> I entertained the stupid idea as well to the arrival of powerful >>>>>>> aliens with more wisdom than Earthlings and install a new way of >>>>>>> thinking. >>>>>>> The result was: >>>>>>> that could be no better than the present one, implementing new, but >>>>>>> not becessarily better patterns (for us). We could corrupt those ideas >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> no time. >>>>>>> Or: those would be useless under our circumstances. >>>>>>> Hence my search for someone smarter than me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 4:15 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/4/2015 6:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi John >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:10 PM, John Mikes <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> TELMO: >>>>>>>>> I did not expect from you to point to the 2 centuries old obsolete >>>>>>>>> and theoretical exercise of Marx-Engels (irrespective of Lenin's >>>>>>>>> intermitted LATER speculations) as "blueprint" for a (still?) >>>>>>>>> viable(?) >>>>>>>>> political system. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't think it was ever viable, and I don't think it's relevant >>>>>>>> to the current times, as it is based on too many assumption from an era >>>>>>>> that is long gone (early Industrialism). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I mean is, when people use the word "communism", there is a >>>>>>>> document that describes precisely what this word is supposed to mean. A >>>>>>>> blueprint for communism. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do think that Marx-Engels correctly identified social problems >>>>>>>> that remain being problems to this day, namely the self-reinforcing >>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>> of wealth inequality. The issue is that their proposed solution seems >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> equalize society by throwing the majority of people into extreme >>>>>>>> poverty >>>>>>>> and servitude. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It never got further than a tyranny of 'leftish-sounding' >>>>>>>>> slogans by pretenders. As the original authors dreamed it up, it >>>>>>>>> never (and >>>>>>>>> nowhere) did get off from the ground. >>>>>>>>> I know, I lived in a so called "Peoples' Democracy" (Called >>>>>>>>> 'commi' system - ha ha) which was neither "peoples'" nor democracy. >>>>>>>>> Nor >>>>>>>>> Marxist, nor Leninist. >>>>>>>>> It was a Stalinist tyranny. And Maoist, Pol-Pot, plus a >>>>>>>>> KimIrSen-istic one. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would be very interested in any story you had to share about >>>>>>>> those times. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree that these societies never achieved anything resembling >>>>>>>> what Marx proposed. The remaining communists of today tend to argue >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> all of past communist movements were not sincere in their motivations. >>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>> might very well be true, but even then it is an important piece of >>>>>>>> information on human nature. If we are trying to get from A -> B and we >>>>>>>> always stumble on the same horrors along the way, maybe the plan is >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> not viable for this world. So far we have learned that either >>>>>>>> communism is >>>>>>>> a terrible idea or communist revolutions always end up being hijacked >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> sociopaths. To be honest, I think both are true. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Communism is not a terrible idea - it works fine for families. A >>>>>>>> lot of political problems come from trying to extend ethics that >>>>>>>> evolved >>>>>>>> for families and small tribes to nation states of millions of unrelated >>>>>>>> people. Capitalism has problems from the same source. Owning a flint >>>>>>>> spearhead you made is unproblematic. If you own it you can prohibit >>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>> use, sell it, bequeath it, etc. But when this idea was extended to >>>>>>>> owning >>>>>>>> land it created problems. John Locke thought owning land was an >>>>>>>> oxymoron...you could only "own" the temporary use of land. Didn't >>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>> for hunter-gatherers, but it was problem that had to be solved for >>>>>>>> agricultural society. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That now a lot the world's GDP comes from capital has created the >>>>>>>> same kinds of questions about ownership of capital. Given that r>g in >>>>>>>> Piketty's analysis, is it a good idea to allow the Koch brothers to >>>>>>>> inherit >>>>>>>> a billion dollar business (that their father built by drilling for >>>>>>>> Stalin). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Capitalism - in my view an advanced form of slavery, following >>>>>>>>> feudalism - started to destroy the entire human experiment on this >>>>>>>>> Globe - >>>>>>>>> way before the "warming" entered the picture. >>>>>>>>> It never 'faced' a competition of any 'socialistic' challenger. It >>>>>>>>> succumbbed to the authoritarian religious tyrannies (brutal and >>>>>>>>> violent, or >>>>>>>>> just retracting and philosophical). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As with communism, there is a big gap between the theory and the >>>>>>>> implementation. "Advanced form of slavery" might be a way to put it, >>>>>>>> but an >>>>>>>> even more cynical view would be that there's always been slavery to >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> degree. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I believe that the big challenge that we face is how to move to a >>>>>>>> jobless society. Worse, I think this transition already started but >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is still no political will to admit it. Robotics and AI are Marx's >>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>> nightmare. In the limit, the number of employees required by a business >>>>>>>> will tend to zero, while the ability of a business to provide goods >>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>> rest of us keeps being more and more leveraged by technological >>>>>>>> advance. >>>>>>>> One of the realities about the current economic crises that few are >>>>>>>> willing >>>>>>>> to admit: there simply are no longer jobs for everyone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think the best idea that we have so far is the universal flat >>>>>>>> salary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The trouble with that is that when everyone has the same income >>>>>>>> nobody feels rich...and people like to feel rich. It's Nietzsche's >>>>>>>> "will >>>>>>>> to power". So people who have $100 billion don't want to give up $99 >>>>>>>> billion to the general welfare, even though it would make the world >>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>> and make no discernible difference in their life style. So they >>>>>>>> instead >>>>>>>> use a few billion to persuade people to vote for politicians who won't >>>>>>>> tax >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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