On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 9:52:05 PM UTC-7, Bruce wrote: > > meekerdb wrote: > > On 6/12/2015 6:29 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > >> LizR wrote: > >>> On 12 June 2015 at 17:40, Bruce Kellett <bhke...@optusnet.com.au > <javascript:> > >>> Arithmetic is, after all, only an axiomatic system. We can make up > >>> an indefinite number of axiomatic systems whose theorems are every > >>> bit as 'independent of us' as those of arithmetic. Are these also > to > >>> be accepted as 'really real!'? Standard arithmetic is only > important > >>> to us because it is useful in the physical world. It is invented, > >>> not fundamental. > >>> > >>> So you say, and you may be right. Or you may not. The question is > >>> whether 2+2=4 independently of human beings (and aliens who may have > >>> invented, or discovered as the case may be, arithmetic). > >> > >> It may well be independent of humans or other (alien) beings, but it > >> has no meaning until you have defined what the symbols '2','4','+', > >> and '=' mean. Then it is a tautology. > >> > >> Bruce > >> > > It is commonly thought to be discovered and so to be "ought there" > > independent of human beings or any cognition. But when considered more > > carefully what was discovered is that one can group pairs to things > > together (at least in imagination) and have four things. So two fathers > > grouped with two sons is four people. Except when it's three people. > > So we said OK we'll *define* units to be things that obey the rules that > > 2+2=4. Then we discovered that these rules implied a lot of things we > > hadn't thought of. But they aren't "out there", they're in our > language. > > > > Brent > > I agree. But I think that the attraction of Platonism lies in the fact > that if you abstract the notion of 'twoness' from all groups of two > things, such as fathers, sons, pebbles, and so on, then you get an > underlying perfect form that is independent of imperfections: such as > the possibility that two fathers plus two sons might be only three > people (or even only two people); or the unpleasant fact that two drops > of water plus two drops of water might make only one drop of water. > > Platonism is a search for an escape from the 'ugliness' of reality. > Bruce > Another POV: Other than "two-ness", etc. as in quantities, consider sequence position such as first-ness, second-ness, third-ness etc. These refer to a state/condition as to that specific relational position in order sequence.
E.g. Every horse race jockey and those who bet money on them fully realize that there is a different instantiated feeling or experience of that of the position of 1st-ness as opposed to that of 4th-ness at the race finish line. These are very real to both the bettor and jockey for either positive or negative (ugliness) view of reality. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
