> On 07-Aug-2015, at 9:46 pm, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> On 07 Aug 2015, at 05:54, Samiya Illias wrote:
>>
>> Bruno,
>> I'm reading R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz. In the Introduction to A Study of
>> Numbers, they quote his last words. It reminds me of your salvia beings.
>> Thought the attached might be of interest to you.
>> Regards,
>> Samiya
>
> Nice quote Samya.
>
> I love "He [Schwaller I guess] applied himself relentlessly to the apparently
> impossible task of using reason to surmount reason."
>
> This is what Gödel illustrates: the use of reason to study the limit of
> reason, for example reason cannot produce a mean to decide if a diophantine
> (polynomial in integers) equation has or not some solution.
>
> Mathematicians have shown the non solubility of many problems, accepting (as
> most does) Church's thesis or Church's definition of computable/algorithm.
>
> But Gödel already saw that the machine or formal systems (which really means
> systems described by they local forms) can prove their own incompleteness
> theorem, so that machine reasoning about themselves can get the fact that if
> they are consistent, then they can't justify it rationally. Consistency is
> equivalent with the existence of a reality which satisfies my beliefs (in the
> sense that they render my beliefs true). So, machine looking inward
> (reasoning on themselves, but also trying to figure out their own
> semantic/reality can prove, infer and intuit (correctly or not) that "there
> is a reality", and can justify that if there is a reality then we cannot
> justify rationally the "existence" of that reality.
>
> It is also the intuition of the Platonist and Neoplatonist: we can use reason
> to develop confidence in what extends necessarility reason, "The Reality",
> which might be only the semantic of oneself, the reality which satisfies my
> beliefs, in the sense of the logiciens, where a reality (called Model) is
> what makes a belief true of false (to stay in classical logic).
>
> The machines can already do the impossible task: use reason to surmount
> reason.
>
> All self-referentially correct machine get mystical, ... for good reason.
>
> The "authorties" or simply those who want to control you cannot accept the
> mysticals as this one will take its order from something they cannot control.
> The self-referentically correct machine is Groucho-Marxiste, she refutes all
> categorzation made by others.
>
> About the entity that Schwaller describes, I don't know what relation you see
> with salvia.
Earlier you once explained the salvia experience to me as: "Salvia is a logical
drug, it provides counter-example to any certainty you might have in theology.
It provides an epimenidian sort of super-dream argument: a sort of
hallucination saying of itself that it is an hallucination."
Similar to your 'counter-example to any certainty', Schwaller speaks of the
mental being as the source of all doubt. That is why it reminded me of Salvia
entity: perhaps both of you experience different manifestations of the same
mental being?
Samiya
>
> With any entheogen (psychotrope) it is the mental being which create the
> fears and the resistance. Dying, sleep and altered consciousness exploration
> requires the ability to "let it go". To accept losing control. That mental
> being is the little ego, but on earth, he *has* good reason to "create fear",
> if you agree that it is better to eat than being eaten. But the kind of
> technic to get "religious" state always involved a sort of acceotance of
> dying and let reason expands on the meaning of the possible "hallucination".
> Here salvia is the most cartesian teacher i could have dreamed of, as it
> offers the "dream argument on a plate".
>
> I know that not all person are prepared, and for those who are concerned with
> the mundane life, cannabis is better as it open the appetite for life, and
> can ease the pain.
>
> Salvia is for the theologian, i.e. those interested in the after life, the
> prelife, the parallel lives, or who haved lived situation to search a meaning
> of life.
>
> Note that computationalism makes clear also the existence of the theological
> trap: to take for granted a statement belonging in G* minus G, that is a
> truth which cannot be justified. It maks a part of theology secret, or
> derivable partially by the "dangerous" meta-assumption of self-correctness:
> this comp explains that it is your free choice, at your risk and peril. You
> have local means for harm reduction.
>
> Still about salvia, I explained yesterday to some friend asking about COMP,
> that a rough description of logical entailment would be
>
> NUMBER = > CONSCIOUSNESS-FLUX => PHYSICAL REALITY => HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS
>
> But then I dared to redescribe this by:
>
> NUMBER = > DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS => PHYSICAL REALITY => HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS
>
> Which makes sense with the Plotinian morphism. Then the salvia experience is
> like remembering the divine consciousness, which is the state of the "virgin"
> Löbian machine, the one described by the principal Plotinian hypostases. It
> produces this by a strong dissociation: like going not just out of the body,
> but out of the physical reality. (what mathematicians do already, somehow).
>
> Of course, I might be biased, so I am the last one to ask how to interpret
> the salvia experience. The "lady salvia" is a fierce entity only for those
> who create their daemons. It is a fierce entity for what Schwaller called the
> "mental being" (the "little ego" naive enough to take a psycho-trope ... and
> resist).
> You can't sleep well if you are not sure the gas trigger is in the right
> position.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
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