On 08 Aug 2015, at 05:31, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 07-Aug-2015, at 9:46 pm, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
On 07 Aug 2015, at 05:54, Samiya Illias wrote:
Bruno,
I'm reading R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz. In the Introduction to A
Study of Numbers, they quote his last words. It reminds me of your
salvia beings. Thought the attached might be of interest to you.
Regards,
Samiya
Nice quote Samya.
I love "He [Schwaller I guess] applied himself relentlessly to the
apparently impossible task of using reason to surmount reason."
This is what Gödel illustrates: the use of reason to study the
limit of reason, for example reason cannot produce a mean to decide
if a diophantine (polynomial in integers) equation has or not some
solution.
Mathematicians have shown the non solubility of many problems,
accepting (as most does) Church's thesis or Church's definition of
computable/algorithm.
But Gödel already saw that the machine or formal systems (which
really means systems described by they local forms) can prove their
own incompleteness theorem, so that machine reasoning about
themselves can get the fact that if they are consistent, then they
can't justify it rationally. Consistency is equivalent with the
existence of a reality which satisfies my beliefs (in the sense
that they render my beliefs true). So, machine looking inward
(reasoning on themselves, but also trying to figure out their own
semantic/reality can prove, infer and intuit (correctly or not)
that "there is a reality", and can justify that if there is a
reality then we cannot justify rationally the "existence" of that
reality.
It is also the intuition of the Platonist and Neoplatonist: we can
use reason to develop confidence in what extends necessarility
reason, "The Reality", which might be only the semantic of
oneself, the reality which satisfies my beliefs, in the sense of
the logiciens, where a reality (called Model) is what makes a
belief true of false (to stay in classical logic).
The machines can already do the impossible task: use reason to
surmount reason.
All self-referentially correct machine get mystical, ... for good
reason.
The "authorties" or simply those who want to control you cannot
accept the mysticals as this one will take its order from something
they cannot control. The self-referentically correct machine is
Groucho-Marxiste, she refutes all categorzation made by others.
About the entity that Schwaller describes, I don't know what
relation you see with salvia.
Earlier you once explained the salvia experience to me as: "Salvia
is a logical drug, it provides counter-example to any certainty you
might have in theology. It provides an epimenidian sort of super-
dream argument: a sort of hallucination saying of itself that it is
an hallucination."
Similar to your 'counter-example to any certainty', Schwaller speaks
of the mental being as the source of all doubt. That is why it
reminded me of Salvia entity: perhaps both of you experience
different manifestations of the same mental being?
I doubt so because Schwaller seems to consider it like if it was an
enemy to fight. But the salvia "entity" (the main one) rise doubt in
the cartesian way, and so get the undoubtable fixed point (Descartes'
self-existence). In fact, both the cartesian argument and salvia makes
that fixed point much more solid, and this makes the admissible doubt
spectrum much larger, which is good as all atoms of public certainty
is an obstacle for freeing the mind spiritually.
When I have more time I will read more of Schwaller who seems
interesting. I did not know him. Thanks.
I can appreciate some talk of some theosophists, but *they* do the
"religious error" and seems to be unable to avoid some idolatry
attitude toward their inspirators. Yet, they have some common
doctrinal points with the neoplatonists.
Science is doubt, and allowing to study theology with the scientific
method is just allowing and encouraging doubts in the field, and
recognizing that all human texts are human theories or prose trying to
capture with words something which, almost by definition in most
tradition including Islam, is beyond humans' words and comprehension.
That's why sacred text should never been taken literally.
Spiritual faith is not in opposition with doubting. It is the
contrary: the more big is the inner faith, the more big will be the
public doubt spectrum. The faith starts from the inner experience, the
"heart", not the logical brain which, like anything finite, is
logically forced to doubt (all Gods, all realities, except the
undoubtable fixed point which is incorrigible, but is not public).
When pseudo-religious people attack the doubting attitude in religion,
they show up their lack of faith. Only someone NOT believing in God
can believe there is a need for humans to do something for the faith
of others. Those who have faith trust God for the public relations,
and let Him/It/She do the job.
Using God in politics, like when mixing state and religion is harmful
for the politics and harmful for the religion. It might have positive
role, locally, especially before democracy, and life has often
invested in lies (like orchids which pretends to have nectar, and get
pollinated by flies doing all the work by searching a nectar which is
not there, since billions of years). But this does not work in the
long run with universal machine which can know that they are universal
and have as goal the approach of Truth. They already know that it is
non communicable, and that's why, Lao-ze, when talking too much, said
"the wise person remains silent".
So, I would interpret, at first sight, Schwaller's "mental being" not
as the main entity we can met with salvia, but as what people often
call "the little ego", and which is the one actually crushed by the
entity.
The mechanist explanation could be that with salvia you dissociate so
much that your consciousness is the one of the universal person. That
one needs no more neurons, as we know it is distributed in all
arithmetical relevant number relation. What is amazing is that we can
live this from a first person perspective, (if not it is just
mathematics) and get what Vimalakirti called the "inconceivable
freedom". But the brain protects us from this, as such "theological
truth" is in opposition with the "little ego's" duties on the
terrestrial plane. So we can't come back from salvia believing that
stuff: it is properly unbelievable and unspeakable.
The reason why we have to come back is still quite unclear to me, but
I continue the research. Actually with salvia, we have the choice of
not coming back, and it is the universal person which comes backs:
salvia seems to do the duplication, yet in a slow manner, so that the
one who comes back is the "higher self" itself, but it quickly forget
that too, and reappropriates quickly the body and soul of the one
which from its first person point of view decided to stay there. This
go farer than in most account of Near Death Experiences. The salvia is
almost like an incognito suicide (I recommend only to people having
strong spiritual motivations, or despair up to be prone of making
suicide).
Bruno
Samiya
With any entheogen (psychotrope) it is the mental being which
create the fears and the resistance. Dying, sleep and altered
consciousness exploration requires the ability to "let it go". To
accept losing control. That mental being is the little ego, but on
earth, he *has* good reason to "create fear", if you agree that it
is better to eat than being eaten. But the kind of technic to get
"religious" state always involved a sort of acceotance of dying and
let reason expands on the meaning of the possible "hallucination".
Here salvia is the most cartesian teacher i could have dreamed of,
as it offers the "dream argument on a plate".
I know that not all person are prepared, and for those who are
concerned with the mundane life, cannabis is better as it open the
appetite for life, and can ease the pain.
Salvia is for the theologian, i.e. those interested in the after
life, the prelife, the parallel lives, or who haved lived situation
to search a meaning of life.
Note that computationalism makes clear also the existence of the
theological trap: to take for granted a statement belonging in G*
minus G, that is a truth which cannot be justified. It maks a part
of theology secret, or derivable partially by the "dangerous" meta-
assumption of self-correctness: this comp explains that it is your
free choice, at your risk and peril. You have local means for harm
reduction.
Still about salvia, I explained yesterday to some friend asking
about COMP, that a rough description of logical entailment would be
NUMBER = > CONSCIOUSNESS-FLUX => PHYSICAL REALITY => HUMAN
CONSCIOUSNESS
But then I dared to redescribe this by:
NUMBER = > DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS => PHYSICAL REALITY => HUMAN
CONSCIOUSNESS
Which makes sense with the Plotinian morphism. Then the salvia
experience is like remembering the divine consciousness, which is
the state of the "virgin" Löbian machine, the one described by the
principal Plotinian hypostases. It produces this by a strong
dissociation: like going not just out of the body, but out of the
physical reality. (what mathematicians do already, somehow).
Of course, I might be biased, so I am the last one to ask how to
interpret the salvia experience. The "lady salvia" is a fierce
entity only for those who create their daemons. It is a fierce
entity for what Schwaller called the "mental being" (the "little
ego" naive enough to take a psycho-trope ... and resist).
You can't sleep well if you are not sure the gas trigger is in the
right position.
Bruno
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