On the drug thing, especially with DMT, users were supposed to communicate with bouncing balls, giant mantises, metallic robots, and humanoid ambulatory trees. Well, Terrence Mckenna told some interesting tales about his dmt visions, but after years of people doodling with their brains, using dmt, ayahuasca, mescalin, and lsd, no such repeat visions, by other users were achieved. Non-repeatability, for me, is a tip-off that this was one man's clever writings, and not a true transcendental phenomena (if such really exists). On the other hand, being an evil, old, fart, I still admit to liking the ancient acid rock tune, In-a-gadda-davida, by the Iron Butterfly 1967. Be warned, this tune was initiated by california red wine and not psilocybin! The songwriter was attempting to sing, "In the garden of eden," but was phonetically, impaired because of the california red. News you can't use!!!
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail -----Original Message----- From: chris peck <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2015 07:06 PM Subject: RE: Idiot Test <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_5295ac28-3689-4288-b9f4-76631c0cb089"> <style scoped="">#AOLMsgPart_2_5295ac28-3689-4288-b9f4-76631c0cb089 td{color: black;} .aolReplacedBody .aolmail_hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } .aolReplacedBody body.aolmail_hmmessage { font-size: 12pt; font-family:Calibri }</style> <div class="aolReplacedBody"> <div dir="ltr"> Here's a thread with all the list's alpha-male geniuses mocking someone. Here's me, the village idiot, convinced they all pass their own idiot test with flying colours. lol. I mean if the test involves understanding the implications of psychedelic drugs then you all just failed to do that. A monumental fail to Kim and Bruno, particularly. There's absolutely bugger-all metaphysically that people who have taken these drugs can agree on. Sod Salvia, even DMT and the mighty 5meo-DMT fail to deliver a consistent metaphysical message to those who take it, and 'psycho-nauts' effectively fall into two camps with Strassman-ites on the one hand claiming these drugs open the mind to real alien hyper-spaces (roll eyes), and the Sand-ites on the other believing they are just tools to explore one's own mind. But there's no consensus. If there is any general consensus about psychedelics it is a psychological/moral one. That we should have a healthy sense of self-doubt about our own convictions. You guys are half way there with a healthy sense of doubt about everyone elses convictions but none for your own. Are you sure you weren't just chewing mint? <hr id="aolmail_stopSpelling">From: <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a> To: <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a> Subject: Re: Idiot Test Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:21:19 +0200 <div> <div> On 12 Aug 2015, at 01:06, Kim Jones wrote: <br class="aolmail_ecxApple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <blockquote> <div> On 11 Aug 2015, at 10:26 pm, Bruno Marchal < <a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote: <br class="aolmail_ecxApple-interchange-newline"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;"> No doubt that it would be interesting to look at. Salvia has been called a cure of ... atheism (the non agnostic one 'course). Not that it makes you believe in anything new, it just shows reasons to doubt more, and to recognize we are more ignorant that we would have been able to conceive before. <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;"> </div> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;"> Bruno </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> Well, that’s it, surely. The Idiot Test administered in this way has as a basic assumption that only what might be called The True Public Idiot is by nature incapable of changing or modifying his stated beliefs. A hallmark of idiocy is absolute certainty. In this light, Richard Dawkins for example, qualifies pretty much as a TPI. </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> Absolute public certainties is madness. </div> <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> The other thing about this possible theological definition of ‘idiocy’ is: you will never meet an idiot who thinks the test was run fairly. This person has to accept that there is now an institution-backed sanction against them due to someone ticking a box marked ‘idiot’ next to their name. Still, they can justify themselves by saying how ‘in the past’ they changed their mind over certain matters when people whose opinions they could respect convinced them otherwise. You might like to check this assertion by interviewing his mother or sister instead. </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> Idiocy is only an unfortunate self-destructive type of mentality. Most idiot are actually just wounded people, but in this case, knowing that thus not necessarily help. (Keep in mind that I distinguish "intelligent" from "competent", and thus "idiot" from "incompetent". Competence is domain dependent and can be evaluated by test or exams. Idiocy and Intelligence does not admit definition, and we can agree, or not, on some axiomatics. And I like to interpret Dt, that is ~Bf, by "intelligent" and Bf by idiot. You can read Bf by "I assert stupidities" Gödel's second theorem becomes: If I don't assert stupidities then I don't assert that I don't assert stupidities. Intelligence is the mother of all protagorean virtues, which cannot be tought by words but only with example, and typically when you assert them about yourself you kill them, and when you assert the negation, you aggravate your case. Modesty, or humity of scientific-mindness are important virtue which are not protogorean, although they can have protagorean interpretation. <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> You will never, <span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-align:-webkit-auto;">therefore,</span> <span style="text-align:-webkit-auto;"> catch a certified public idiot in the act of changing his beliefs.</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> I am not sure that there exists something or someone like a certified public idiot. <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <span style="text-align:-webkit-auto;"> This is because he has never changed his beliefs in the past and will never in the future - not because you are unlucky in the matter of catching him at it. The ticking of the box marked ‘idiot’ is a truly serious business. True (ie incorrigible) Public Idiots are actually quite rare. </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> I don't believe that exist, but emotions can make people behaving like idiot and indeed it typically last. It is the problem of the lies. The longer time a person lie, the harder it is to admit it, and the graver the consequence *can* be. <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <span style="text-align:-webkit-auto;">Even David Icke had to kind of admit that he probably wasn’t the reincarnation of JC…proving therefore that he was capable of recognising the lie he was telling himself.</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> I don't know David Icke. <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> This leads to further refinements of the concept: </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> 1. An idiot is one who lies about core matters - but only to himself. </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> I will think about that. It is complex, and dangerous because it is both counter-intuitive, and probably in the G* minus G part. <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> Others long since realised he enjoys playing this game with himself and that any other setup would entail him in ceasing to enjoy the game. </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> If he enjoys himself he might not just be idiot, but dishonest, which is far graver. It is complex. And the machine protagorean theory is much too rough here, and easily misunderstood, indeed "morally". Platonist likes to relate truth, goodness, beautifulness, intelligence, ... though. Bruno <blockquote> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> 2. ?? </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> Please feel free to add your own refinement. </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> Kim </div> <div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue';font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;orphans:2;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;widows:2;word-wrap:break-word;"> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br class="aolmail_ecxwebkit-block-placeholder"> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>. To post to this group, send email to <a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>. Visit this group at <a target="_blank" href="http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list";>http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list</a>. For more options, visit <a target="_blank" href="https://groups.google.com/d/optout";>https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>. </blockquote> </div> <span class="aolmail_ecxApple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;"> <div style="word-wrap:break-word;"> <div> <a target="_blank" href="http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/";>http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a> <br class="aolmail_ecxwebkit-block-placeholder"> </div></span> <br class="aolmail_ecxApple-interchange-newline"> </div> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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