On 29 Jul 2016, at 00:25, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: musings on time
On 26 Jul 2016, at 19:59, '[email protected]' via Everything
List wrote:
------ Original message------
From: Bruno Marchal
Date: Mon, 7/25/2016 7:31 AM
On 25 Jul 2016, at 01:45, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
wrote:
Hey it’s been a while… been following some discussions from time
to time, lurking I guess….
without further ado this is what I am musing on – today at least
-- in the form of a poem.
Time a Musing
Time, this tapestry upon which the stories of the universe are
written.
This weave, spun from dancing kaleidoscope threads
Giving us our view of the world, but whose cloth, yet.. has always
been.
This chaotic wave of emerging reality sweeping all in the foamy
curl of collapsing superposition.
Fixing in time, becoming written, juxtaposed, interpolated,
incorporated
In the mind… reifying each moment just lived, (as it dawns on us)
into our living stories, our edifices of memories, convictions,
dreams, hopes and fears as well.
Each moment perceived an inner splash… with all the follow on
repercussions!
The private inner narrative of our minds -- that which we sense as
being ourselves – itself emerges from this complex roiling sea of
interactions
Appearing within us out from the mist of this reified stream of
perceived instants, clanging about in the chatty electric circus
of the brain, engaging in a loud shouting match with what just
happened.
Out of this noise of introspection, argument and emergent
consensus, events become sown into ourselves, becoming assumed and
adopted through interaction with our inner prisms.
Our voice, speaking the narrative of our mind’s inner reflections
on life… on time… is itself like an afterglow.
Each moment becoming the next, gone before the experience of the
former has happened… we are propelled forward in time.
Time itself may not exist (maybe?), but the experience of time
very much does.
Perhaps… it is our introspective theater of and reflection on our
experience that, in the end, is the meaning and purpose of time
itself.
Time… how the universe engages in thinking about itself.
Cheers… and be nice to each other… from time to time.
Thank you Chris. Marvelous poem. It might use some implicitly
physicalist formulations though but we can't comment a poem 'course:)
Thank you Bruno... it was an afternoon's musing :)
Like it happens in hot summer holyday :)
I freely confess I have no certainty to know what underpins
everything, whether it's on some level "turtles all the way
down"... or instead, as I find more ethsetic, the quantum
instability of nothing itself making everything probable!
Unfortunately, the "nothing" of QM assumes a lot of thing, if not
the whole of QM. Then, thanks to computationalism, we have some hope
to understand where the QM assumptions are originating themselves
from the elementary school math assumption.
Agreed, there is much in terms of information already present in
this nothing... and it is valid to ask where does all of this non-
physical stuff (QM) arise from itself.
Of course "time" and "experience of time" are very different. The
first one is an "illusion" (in relativity theory, or GR), the
second one can hardly be an illusion (a point of disagreement
between me and ... salvia (!)).
I also find it exceedingly hard to imagine a meaningful existence
without causality!
Without any causality? I can understand. Without physical causality,
I guess it might be due to 1500 years of pseudo-religious
brainwashing.
We need some causality, but the implication relation in Turing-
complete theories is quite enough. Deducitive relation are in the
eyes' beholder.
Instead I feel that without causality we have no grip with which to
identify our being with some specific MWI pathways, which give
uniqueness & meaning to our identity... if all paths are taken
instantaneously and in every instant I feel the ensuing experiential
qualia would be a total blinding white out, which obliterates our
self identity. We require information hiding (and can only ever
witness the universe which manifests our given sequence of quantum
choices) in order to not become overwhelmed by the sheer infinity of
our fully realized self -- e.g. the "self" that experiences and
encompasses all possible choices that are realized.
In that sense, I agree that we need phsyical causality. We we don't
need to assume it. It can possibly be an emerging notion from
elementary arithmetic say. To deduce physical causality from numbers
would even make more solid our trust in such causality notion, instead
of extrapolating from our sense experience.
Now, indeed, with computationalism absolute personal identity is lost,
but why be worried on this, as we keep our relative identities, and
the hidden information you mention, and nothing will change in any
mundane terrestrial practices. To say the contrary would be a misuse
of machine's theology.
Of course, this is the today's topics: physical causality emerges
from infinitely many simple arithmetical relations. We have to
retrieve the physical causality appearances from them (by UDA, say),
and that is not hard with computationalism, as computationalism
shows the existence of an intrinsic notion of causality already
represented or realized in arithmetic.
Apology for commenting a poem :)
No worries... Poems can become better with comments... and some
kinds of poems have no beginning and so also no end :)
OK :)
Bruno
Chris
Bruno
Could time be how we experience our subjective perspective's
trajectory in a branching multiverse?
Assuming MWI.... each of us is a branching cause-effect path of
quantum choices fixed in fuzzy moments... but all paths exist (in
the massively branching multiverse)
I feel as if time is like Hansel's pebbles (Hanse & Gretel) ... it
serves to connect our experiential now with our reflective
recollection of what we were and the where of how we got here....
without which we lose identity.
Time is tightly coupled and inseparable from causality. It emerges
manifest from perhaps infinite loci of the infinite branching of
everything... again assuming MWI.
Is time, a cosmic accounting trick to entangle us all in the spider
web of causality that is necessary and central to our emergent self-
meaning?
A quick comment re your disagreement with Salvia... could Salvia be
saying to you that time/causality are on some level training
wheels? (Necessary for us, yet not necessarily fundamental to all
being)
- Chris
PS (that was a nice series, will check the utube link out as well)
BTW the "PBS Space Time" series is very good on the "illusion" of
energy/mass, space and time). Even if physicalist by default too.
For example: "When time breaks down" (and others):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguAN1_JouQ
Bruno
-Chris
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