From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: musings on time
On 29 Jul 2016, at 00:25, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: musings on time
On 26 Jul 2016, at 19:59, '[email protected]' via Everything List wrote:
------ Original message------From: Bruno Marchal Date: Mon, 7/25/2016
7:31 AM
On 25 Jul 2016, at 01:45, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
Hey it’s been a while… been following some discussions from time to time,
lurking I guess….without further ado this is what I am musing on – today at
least -- in the form of a poem. Time a Musing Time, this tapestry upon which
the stories of the universe are written.This weave, spun from dancing
kaleidoscope threadsGiving us our view of the world, but whose cloth, yet.. has
always been.This chaotic wave of emerging reality sweeping all in the foamy
curl of collapsing superposition.Fixing in time, becoming written, juxtaposed,
interpolated, incorporatedIn the mind… reifying each moment just lived, (as it
dawns on us) into our living stories, our edifices of memories, convictions,
dreams, hopes and fears as well. Each moment perceived an inner splash… with
all the follow on repercussions!The private inner narrative of our minds --
that which we sense as being ourselves – itself emerges from this complex
roiling sea of interactionsAppearing within us out from the mist of this
reified stream of perceived instants, clanging about in the chatty electric
circus of the brain, engaging in a loud shouting match with what just
happened.Out of this noise of introspection, argument and emergent consensus,
events become sown into ourselves, becoming assumed and adopted through
interaction with our inner prisms.Our voice, speaking the narrative of our
mind’s inner reflections on life… on time… is itself like an afterglow.Each
moment becoming the next, gone before the experience of the former has
happened… we are propelled forward in time. Time itself may not exist
(maybe?), but the experience of time very much does.Perhaps… it is our
introspective theater of and reflection on our experience that, in the end, is
the meaning and purpose of time itself.Time… how the universe engages in
thinking about itself. Cheers… and be nice to each other… from time to time.
Thank you Chris. Marvelous poem. It might use some implicitly physicalist
formulations though but we can't comment a poem 'course:) Thank you Bruno... it
was an afternoon's musing :)
Like it happens in hot summer holyday :)
I freely confess I have no certainty to know what underpins everything, whether
it's on some level "turtles all the way down"... or instead, as I find more
ethsetic, the quantum instability of nothing itself making everything probable!
Unfortunately, the "nothing" of QM assumes a lot of thing, if not the whole of
QM. Then, thanks to computationalism, we have some hope to understand where the
QM assumptions are originating themselves from the elementary school math
assumption.
Agreed, there is much in terms of information already present in this
nothing... and it is valid to ask where does all of this non-physical stuff
(QM) arise from itself.
Of course "time" and "experience of time" are very different. The first one is
an "illusion" (in relativity theory, or GR), the second one can hardly be an
illusion (a point of disagreement between me and ... salvia (!)). I also find
it exceedingly hard to imagine a meaningful existence without causality!
Without any causality? I can understand. Without physical causality, I guess it
might be due to 1500 years of pseudo-religious brainwashing.We need some
causality, but the implication relation in Turing-complete theories is quite
enough. Deducitive relation are in the eyes' beholder.
Instead I feel that without causality we have no grip with which to identify
our being with some specific MWI pathways, which give uniqueness & meaning to
our identity... if all paths are taken instantaneously and in every instant I
feel the ensuing experiential qualia would be a total blinding white out, which
obliterates our self identity. We require information hiding (and can only ever
witness the universe which manifests our given sequence of quantum choices) in
order to not become overwhelmed by the sheer infinity of our fully realized
self -- e.g. the "self" that experiences and encompasses all possible choices
that are realized.
In that sense, I agree that we need phsyical causality. We we don't need to
assume it. It can possibly be an emerging notion from elementary arithmetic
say. To deduce physical causality from numbers would even make more solid our
trust in such causality notion, instead of extrapolating from our sense
experience.
I agree... I can't see any fundamental reason why causality itself could not be
an emergent phenomena that is driven by a more fundamental process. In any
given universe we experience the causal linking of observer-moment A preceding
observer-moment B; whereas in the multiverse Observer-moment A links to all
possible outcomes -- e.g. the infinite set of all possible observer moment B.
Now, indeed, with computationalism absolute personal identity is lost, but why
be worried on this, as we keep our relative identities, and the hidden
information you mention, and nothing will change in any mundane terrestrial
practices. To say the contrary would be a misuse of machine's theology.
Can we be anything other than relative identities? Our very sense of identity
is inextricably bound up with our relative history of observer-moments.
Of course, this is the today's topics: physical causality emerges from
infinitely many simple arithmetical relations. We have to retrieve the physical
causality appearances from them (by UDA, say), and that is not hard with
computationalism, as computationalism shows the existence of an intrinsic
notion of causality already represented or realized in arithmetic.
Apology for commenting a poem :)
No worries... Poems can become better with comments... and some kinds of poems
have no beginning and so also no end :)
OK :)
Bruno
Chris
Bruno
Could time be how we experience our subjective perspective's trajectory in a
branching multiverse? Assuming MWI.... each of us is a branching cause-effect
path of quantum choices fixed in fuzzy moments... but all paths exist (in the
massively branching multiverse)I feel as if time is like Hansel's pebbles
(Hanse & Gretel) ... it serves to connect our experiential now with our
reflective recollection of what we were and the where of how we got here....
without which we lose identity.Time is tightly coupled and inseparable from
causality. It emerges manifest from perhaps infinite loci of the infinite
branching of everything... again assuming MWI.Is time, a cosmic accounting
trick to entangle us all in the spider web of causality that is necessary and
central to our emergent self-meaning? A quick comment re your disagreement with
Salvia... could Salvia be saying to you that time/causality are on some level
training wheels? (Necessary for us, yet not necessarily fundamental to all
being)- Chris PS (that was a nice series, will check the utube link out as
well)
BTW the "PBS Space Time" series is very good on the "illusion" of energy/mass,
space and time). Even if physicalist by default too.
For example: "When time breaks down" (and others):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguAN1_JouQ
Bruno
-Chris
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