On 31 Aug 2016, at 20:30, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 11:17:22 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal
wrote:
On 30 Aug 2016, at 18:23, Alan Grayson wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 6:10:41 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote:
On 11/06/2016 3:56 am, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> On 10 Jun 2016, at 03:02, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>> On 10/06/2016 1:41 am, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> On 09 Jun 2016, at 01:28, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>>>> In other words, FPI is just the statement that Alice and Bob
have
>>>> to look to find out which of the (+,+'), (+,-'), (-,+'), or
(-,-')
>>>> worlds they are in. I don't think that actually adds anything
>>>> significant to the discussion.
>>>
>>> That eliminates the physical spooky action at a distance which
are
>>> necessarily there in QM+collapse.
>>
>> You have yet to prove that -- assertion is not proof.
>
> By defining world by "closed for interaction", locality follows
from
> linearity.
Bruno, you specialize in these oracular pronouncements that mean
absolutely nothing.
This is just insulting, and add nothing but confusion.
Avoid ad hominem patronizing tone and focus on what you do not
understand or disagree with.
"locality follows from linearity" -- what a load of
total nonsense.
OK, I was quick there, but I provided more details in *many* other
posts. Please read most of a thread, not just a a sentence here and
there and then adding to the prejudices.
To be slightly less short, and explain, I was talking in the frame
of the non collapse formulation of QM, and I was just saying that
without any collapse, the linearity of the tensor product with the
linearity of the SWE ensure that at any time everything is local,
even computable, in the global third person picture.
Basically, "physical non locality" needs to put some amount of 3p
sense in the collapse of the wave, where in the MWI (and in
arithmetic) the indeterminacies and the non local appearances are
purely epistemic (first person or first person plural).
> There are 1p statistical interference, but Bell's inequality
violation
> is accounted without FTL, which is not the case with collapse, or
> Bohmian particules.
> I gave the proof with others, and eventually you admitted that
there
> was no real action at a distance. But with one world, those are
real
> action at a distance. So I think the point has been made.
There is no FTL mechanism in action in one world or many: Bell
non-locality obeys the no-signalling theorem. You have to get over
thinking that non-locality means FTL action.
Here's an article of interest. FWIW, I don't believe the no-
signalling theorem puts this issue
to rest. AG
In all the thread we (me and Bruce) were agreeing with this,
I haven't read every post in this thread, but from Bruce's remark
above, he apparently believes that you believe in FTL transmission
of information, and that since the no-signal theorem denies that,
your claim (or any claim of FTL transmission) is falsified.
Guess what, you were completely wrong.
I was the one who denies the FTL.
The article I posted denies that the apparent contradiction between
relativity and non locality can be resolved simply by appealing to
the non-signalling theorem, which Bruce seems to assert.
I was the one asserting that with the MWI, even the Bell's violation
does not force FTL, even without signalling possible.
My point, shared by others in the thread, was that with the MWI
restores both 3p determinacy, and 3p locality. The point of Clark and
Bruce is that even with the MWI, Bell's inequality violation proves
that nature is 3p non local, and that action at a distance exists.
I can only go by his words. So I don't see that the article I posted
is irrelevant to the discussion. AG
It was Bruce who claims that Bell's inequality violation shows that
FTL exists, even without possible signalling. I agree that FTL (fast
than light influence which not necessarily exploitable for
transmission of information) still exist, and I agree that it is
logically possible, but people believing in that have the obligation
to give evidence, and my point is that in the MWI, Bell's violation is
no more an evidence, as Bell supposes definite outcomes in definite
realties, which makes no sense in the MWI, nor in computationalism
more generally.
Bruno
The question was specifically about some possible remnant of
physical action at a distance in the MWI. We both know that the non
signaling does not put light on this. Genuine physical action at a
distance obviously exist in the QM-with-collapse, by Bell's
inequality violation, but Bell's argument does not show action at a
distance( in any unique branch if that exist), in the MWI.
What we have is the contagion of superposition, and they never go
quicker than interaction, that is at sub-speed of light.
And that is why we can define, or represent the "world" by set of
space-time events closed for interaction.
http://people.uleth.ca/~kent.peacock/FQXi_v2.pdf
Interesting (but out of topic indeed).
Bruno
>>> That adds nothing, indeed. That shows only that the paradoxes
came
>>> only from the axioms some have added to fit their philosophical
>>> prejudices.
>>
>> So you add axioms to suit your philosophical prejudices just as
>> others do -- how does that make your position any better than
that of
>> others?
>
> No. I subtract axioms.
>
> Bohr's axioms: SWE + COLLAPSE + number (add,mult) (+
> unintelligible theory of mind)
>
> Everett's axioms SWE + Number (add,mult). (+ mechanist
theory of
> mind)
>
> Your servitor's axioms: Number(add,mult). (+ mechanist
theory
> of mind)
>
> And I don't pretend that is true, only that digital mechanism makes
> this necessary and testable (modulo the usual "malin génies").
All the above sets of axioms lead to non-local theories. You may
claim
just to subtract axioms, but that is as much choosing your axioms
as any
other procedure. And you have yet to show that you get the physics of
this world out of your theory --and demonstrate the necessary
stability
of the physics. Just wishing evil genies away does not actually
banish them.
Bruce
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