On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
> biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
>
> I think that its more an attempt to calm the nervous system, by focused
> relaxation. Its the amygdala's way of quieting the fight-flight process of
> the amygdala, and using the cerebrum to do this. .

Sure, but the implications of this relaxation can be deep, depending
on your model of what consciousness is.

It can also be a deep personal experience, and here we enter
non-communicable territory. Trying to communicate the non-communicable
leads to Bruno's "theological trap" or, as it is more commonly known,
organized religion.

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2016 3:52 am
> Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing, Eventually
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>
>> On 13 Sep 2016, at 11:47, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:00 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> We know that humans are capable of choosing self-destruction. It is
>>>>> also obvious that most don't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would argue that given the proper circumstances anybody would choose
>>>> self
>>>> destruction.
>>>>
>>>> I just saw a documentary about 911, it showed people jumping to their
>>>> death
>>>> out of windows. I believe if I was faced with a choice between living
>>>> for
>>>> an
>>>> additional minute or two in searing pain as I burned to death and the
>>>> only
>>>> other alternative I too would determine that jumping from the 95th floor
>>>> was
>>>> the more attractive option.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> and as a human you probably feel a
>>>>>
>>>>> strong resistance against harming yourself. Where does this resistance
>>>>>
>>>>> come from? Our brains where evolved to have it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But why evolve brains at all? Why not hard wire us on how to behave in
>>>> every
>>>> conceivable circumstance? Because the human genome is only 3 billion
>>>> base
>>>> pares long, and if it were a hundred thousand million billion trillion
>>>> times
>>>> as big it would still be ridiculously too small for that. So Evolution
>>>> had
>>>> to invent brains and give it a rather vague and general command "do the
>>>> best you can to figure out a way to get your genes into the next
>>>> generation". But like a good lawyer that brain was able to find lots and
>>>> lots of loopholes in that poorly written command, and hence we have
>>>> suicide
>>>> and birth control pills and people wasting time (from Evolution's point
>>>> of
>>>> view) looking for a quantum theory of gravity instead of looking for a
>>>> satisfactory mate. Not every, or even not most, aspects of human
>>>> behavior
>>>> can be predicted from evolutionary theory.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> We are getting better and better at utility function
>>> self-modification. However, we still embedded in a process that
>>> actively resists certain modifications (in the long term). Further, we
>>> are fighting an unequal fight. We are in the situation of your Jupiter
>>> Brain, that cannot fully understand itself.
>>>
>>> In my "designed superintelligence" scenario, the entity is confronted
>>> with a protection mechanism that was conceived by a lesser
>>> intelligence. Notice that it will still suffer from the Jupiter Brain
>>> problem otherwise. Suppose it's a neural network: adaptation in neural
>>> network learning can generate tremendous complexity. This is already
>>> the case: deep learning works really well but nobody really knows for
>>> sure what it is doing. But if we want the designed AI to follow
>>> certain rules, we are the ones setting the rules and we are the ones
>>> trying to prevent it from changing them.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Mutations that go
>>>>> against this feature are weeded out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A mutation to kill yourself before that age of puberty even under normal
>>>> environmental conditions would be weeded out, but things are usually far
>>>> more subtle than that.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that it is much more subtle than that. My point is that
>>> evolutionary pressure resists total inertia. It somehow creates
>>> entities that are compelled to play the game, even if only for awhile.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you illustrate what I have called once the "theological trap",
>> which
>> is also well debated on hot discussion between zen buddhists, and
>> eventually
>> related to what is called (by some) the last step of the illumination
>> (enlightenment), which is after "having gone there" (the blissful state
>> out
>> of time and space, say), you have still to "come back to the village".
>
> Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
> biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
>
>> For genuinely doing that you have to abandon the most precious thing you
>> have always searched, somehow, and/or stay mute on what you would like to
>> share the most (with the risk that you talk to much and that stupid
>> parrots
>> will repeat what you said without understanding for generations and
>> generations).
>
> A.k.a. "New Age" :) But also all the religions, of course.
>
>> Biology, psychology and theology can differ a lot on the "utility
>> function",
>> and can oppose each other at different level. That is why consistency
>> requires some amount of silence and muteness if we want to be successful
>> on
>> the different planes.
>>
>> There are transfinite lattice of competence degrees, most incomparable in
>> strength, so there will always been matter to come back to the village,
>> and
>> the village has no ends. But "there" the wise know, but cannot say, that
>> utility is futile. Oops! Well, something like that should be a theorem of
>> G*
>> minus G, identifying wiseness with self-referential correctness.
>>
>> Very complex subject, which I think is already quite hot in the soul of
>> all
>> universal numbers. I think we can link it also to the problem of
>> euthanasia
>> (which I think should better not been permitted in states having
>> medication
>> prohibition laws).
>
> I agree it's complex. In this modest paper I just try to show that the
> current ideas about creating superintelligent slaves (they usually
> say, "superintelligence that respects human values") are absurd.
>
> Telmo.
>
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Telmo.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John K Clark
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
>>
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