On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over > biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second. > > I think that its more an attempt to calm the nervous system, by focused > relaxation. Its the amygdala's way of quieting the fight-flight process of > the amygdala, and using the cerebrum to do this. .
Sure, but the implications of this relaxation can be deep, depending on your model of what consciousness is. It can also be a deep personal experience, and here we enter non-communicable territory. Trying to communicate the non-communicable leads to Bruno's "theological trap" or, as it is more commonly known, organized religion. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > To: everything-list <[email protected]> > Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2016 3:52 am > Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing, Eventually > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> On 13 Sep 2016, at 11:47, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:00 AM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>> We know that humans are capable of choosing self-destruction. It is >>>>> also obvious that most don't >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I would argue that given the proper circumstances anybody would choose >>>> self >>>> destruction. >>>> >>>> I just saw a documentary about 911, it showed people jumping to their >>>> death >>>> out of windows. I believe if I was faced with a choice between living >>>> for >>>> an >>>> additional minute or two in searing pain as I burned to death and the >>>> only >>>> other alternative I too would determine that jumping from the 95th floor >>>> was >>>> the more attractive option. >>> >>> >>> Yes, I agree. >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> and as a human you probably feel a >>>>> >>>>> strong resistance against harming yourself. Where does this resistance >>>>> >>>>> come from? Our brains where evolved to have it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But why evolve brains at all? Why not hard wire us on how to behave in >>>> every >>>> conceivable circumstance? Because the human genome is only 3 billion >>>> base >>>> pares long, and if it were a hundred thousand million billion trillion >>>> times >>>> as big it would still be ridiculously too small for that. So Evolution >>>> had >>>> to invent brains and give it a rather vague and general command "do the >>>> best you can to figure out a way to get your genes into the next >>>> generation". But like a good lawyer that brain was able to find lots and >>>> lots of loopholes in that poorly written command, and hence we have >>>> suicide >>>> and birth control pills and people wasting time (from Evolution's point >>>> of >>>> view) looking for a quantum theory of gravity instead of looking for a >>>> satisfactory mate. Not every, or even not most, aspects of human >>>> behavior >>>> can be predicted from evolutionary theory. >>> >>> >>> I agree. >>> >>> We are getting better and better at utility function >>> self-modification. However, we still embedded in a process that >>> actively resists certain modifications (in the long term). Further, we >>> are fighting an unequal fight. We are in the situation of your Jupiter >>> Brain, that cannot fully understand itself. >>> >>> In my "designed superintelligence" scenario, the entity is confronted >>> with a protection mechanism that was conceived by a lesser >>> intelligence. Notice that it will still suffer from the Jupiter Brain >>> problem otherwise. Suppose it's a neural network: adaptation in neural >>> network learning can generate tremendous complexity. This is already >>> the case: deep learning works really well but nobody really knows for >>> sure what it is doing. But if we want the designed AI to follow >>> certain rules, we are the ones setting the rules and we are the ones >>> trying to prevent it from changing them. >>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Mutations that go >>>>> against this feature are weeded out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A mutation to kill yourself before that age of puberty even under normal >>>> environmental conditions would be weeded out, but things are usually far >>>> more subtle than that. >>> >>> >>> I agree that it is much more subtle than that. My point is that >>> evolutionary pressure resists total inertia. It somehow creates >>> entities that are compelled to play the game, even if only for awhile. >> >> >> >> >> I think you illustrate what I have called once the "theological trap", >> which >> is also well debated on hot discussion between zen buddhists, and >> eventually >> related to what is called (by some) the last step of the illumination >> (enlightenment), which is after "having gone there" (the blissful state >> out >> of time and space, say), you have still to "come back to the village". > > Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over > biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second. > >> For genuinely doing that you have to abandon the most precious thing you >> have always searched, somehow, and/or stay mute on what you would like to >> share the most (with the risk that you talk to much and that stupid >> parrots >> will repeat what you said without understanding for generations and >> generations). > > A.k.a. "New Age" :) But also all the religions, of course. > >> Biology, psychology and theology can differ a lot on the "utility >> function", >> and can oppose each other at different level. That is why consistency >> requires some amount of silence and muteness if we want to be successful >> on >> the different planes. >> >> There are transfinite lattice of competence degrees, most incomparable in >> strength, so there will always been matter to come back to the village, >> and >> the village has no ends. But "there" the wise know, but cannot say, that >> utility is futile. Oops! Well, something like that should be a theorem of >> G* >> minus G, identifying wiseness with self-referential correctness. >> >> Very complex subject, which I think is already quite hot in the soul of >> all >> universal numbers. I think we can link it also to the problem of >> euthanasia >> (which I think should better not been permitted in states having >> medication >> prohibition laws). > > I agree it's complex. In this modest paper I just try to show that the > current ideas about creating superintelligent slaves (they usually > say, "superintelligence that respects human values") are absurd. > > Telmo. > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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