Much thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2016 4:11 am
Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing,
Eventually
On 16 Sep 2016, at 16:10, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
At ny age, religion is ok. Life is stressful, and some people seem
genetically enhanced, neuro-biologically, to shrug off loss of
family, friends, pets. For the rest of us mortals=we do very poorly
indeed. However, there are different spiritualities involved in
human neuro. Dr. Marchal has his own, but it's impossible for me to
fathom, being a sub-creature* and all.
Hmm... If you could fathom my religion from my work in theology, it
means I have been at some point a very bad scientist.
I just advocate theology as a science, like at the greek time, and
nobody should be able to guess the religion of a scientist
theologian. As science, (machine) theology is agnostic, except for
the meta-belief that there is something, which is a default
hypothesis of the whole scientific endeavor.
Not sure what you mean by sub-creature, but I am afraid that some
people might have discouraged you in mathematics, as it happens all
the time.
Here;s a link to physicist, Guilio Prisco sort of presents a
theology of sorts, on his Turing-Church website. This article is
about Fred Hoyle who was denied a Nobel in 1983, because he saw more
than scientific-atheism, at work in the cosmos he studied.. It is
pertinent to this discussion. Take a peek, please, and respond, if
merited.
http://turingchurch.com/2016/05/23/a-for-almighty-fred-hoyles-cosmic-theology/
God is supposed to be at the origin of the universe, and could
hardly emerge from it. I appreciate very much Fred Hoyle, but that
theology is still too much Aristotelian to be consistent with
Descartes Mechanism (probably so when explicitly made digital).
In fact, permuting the term God and Universe, on that link, makes
that approach already closer to the machine (neoplatonist) sort of
religion.
We can come back on this. I think that what you (and some other)
might miss is the fact that arithmetic realize all computations, a
bit like a GR block-universe realizes statically all observer's
(branching) history lines. That is not a simulation hypothesis, it
is an arithmetical fact, and then consciousness has to follows, if
we assume computationalism (which *is* the default hypothesis of
basically all scientists, including many which criticize what is
actually much more special version of it.
Bruno
*I am currently having great difficulty comprehending Cisco
switches, routers, IPV4, IPV6, so I am aware that I post on the
email group, amongst intellectual greats.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 16, 2016 9:41 am
Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing,
Eventually
On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
> biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
>
> I think that its more an attempt to calm the nervous system, by
focused
> relaxation. Its the amygdala's way of quieting the fight-flight
process of
> the amygdala, and using the cerebrum to do this. .
Sure, but the implications of this relaxation can be deep, depending
on your model of what consciousness is.
It can also be a deep personal experience, and here we enter
non-communicable territory. Trying to communicate the non-communicable
leads to Bruno's "theological trap" or, as it is more commonly known,
organized religion.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2016 3:52 am
> Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing,
Eventually
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
>>
>> On 13 Sep 2016, at 11:47, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:00 AM, John Clark
<johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> We know that humans are capable of choosing self-destruction.
It is
>>>>> also obvious that most don't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would argue that given the proper circumstances anybody would
choose
>>>> self
>>>> destruction.
>>>>
>>>> I just saw a documentary about 911, it showed people jumping to
their
>>>> death
>>>> out of windows. I believe if I was faced with a choice between
living
>>>> for
>>>> an
>>>> additional minute or two in searing pain as I burned to death
and the
>>>> only
>>>> other alternative I too would determine that jumping from the
95th floor
>>>> was
>>>> the more attractive option.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> and as a human you probably feel a
>>>>>
>>>>> strong resistance against harming yourself. Where does this
resistance
>>>>>
>>>>> come from? Our brains where evolved to have it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But why evolve brains at all? Why not hard wire us on how to
behave in
>>>> every
>>>> conceivable circumstance? Because the human genome is only 3
billion
>>>> base
>>>> pares long, and if it were a hundred thousand million billion
trillion
>>>> times
>>>> as big it would still be ridiculously too small for that. So
Evolution
>>>> had
>>>> to invent brains and give it a rather vague and general command
"do the
>>>> best you can to figure out a way to get your genes into the next
>>>> generation". But like a good lawyer that brain was able to find
lots and
>>>> lots of loopholes in that poorly written command, and hence we
have
>>>> suicide
>>>> and birth control pills and people wasting time (from
Evolution's point
>>>> of
>>>> view) looking for a quantum theory of gravity instead of
looking for a
>>>> satisfactory mate. Not every, or even not most, aspects of human
>>>> behavior
>>>> can be predicted from evolutionary theory.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> We are getting better and better at utility function
>>> self-modification. However, we still embedded in a process that
>>> actively resists certain modifications (in the long term).
Further, we
>>> are fighting an unequal fight. We are in the situation of your
Jupiter
>>> Brain, that cannot fully understand itself.
>>>
>>> In my "designed superintelligence" scenario, the entity is
confronted
>>> with a protection mechanism that was conceived by a lesser
>>> intelligence. Notice that it will still suffer from the Jupiter
Brain
>>> problem otherwise. Suppose it's a neural network: adaptation in
neural
>>> network learning can generate tremendous complexity. This is
already
>>> the case: deep learning works really well but nobody really
knows for
>>> sure what it is doing. But if we want the designed AI to follow
>>> certain rules, we are the ones setting the rules and we are the
ones
>>> trying to prevent it from changing them.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Mutations that go
>>>>> against this feature are weeded out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A mutation to kill yourself before that age of puberty even
under normal
>>>> environmental conditions would be weeded out, but things are
usually far
>>>> more subtle than that.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that it is much more subtle than that. My point is that
>>> evolutionary pressure resists total inertia. It somehow creates
>>> entities that are compelled to play the game, even if only for
awhile.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you illustrate what I have called once the "theological
trap",
>> which
>> is also well debated on hot discussion between zen buddhists, and
>> eventually
>> related to what is called (by some) the last step of the
illumination
>> (enlightenment), which is after "having gone there" (the blissful
state
>> out
>> of time and space, say), you have still to "come back to the
village".
>
> Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
> biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
>
>> For genuinely doing that you have to abandon the most precious
thing you
>> have always searched, somehow, and/or stay mute on what you would
like to
>> share the most (with the risk that you talk to much and that stupid
>> parrots
>> will repeat what you said without understanding for generations and
>> generations).
>
> A.k.a. "New Age" :) But also all the religions, of course.
>
>> Biology, psychology and theology can differ a lot on the "utility
>> function",
>> and can oppose each other at different level. That is why
consistency
>> requires some amount of silence and muteness if we want to be
successful
>> on
>> the different planes.
>>
>> There are transfinite lattice of competence degrees, most
incomparable in
>> strength, so there will always been matter to come back to the
village,
>> and
>> the village has no ends. But "there" the wise know, but cannot
say, that
>> utility is futile. Oops! Well, something like that should be a
theorem of
>> G*
>> minus G, identifying wiseness with self-referential correctness.
>>
>> Very complex subject, which I think is already quite hot in the
soul of
>> all
>> universal numbers. I think we can link it also to the problem of
>> euthanasia
>> (which I think should better not been permitted in states having
>> medication
>> prohibition laws).
>
> I agree it's complex. In this modest paper I just try to show that
the
> current ideas about creating superintelligent slaves (they usually
> say, "superintelligence that respects human values") are absurd.
>
> Telmo.
>
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Telmo.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John K Clark
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
>>
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