The point is that your pursuit is difficult to grasp without, a solid grasp of 
mathematics. Even your UD seems difficult to me for some reason. Not your fault 
but likely, my own lack of capability occurring here. 


Hoyle appeals to me because it opens up different ways of thinking about things 
and this opens up new opportunities for human living. Hoyle was also screwed 
out of his Nobel in stellar synthesis because of the dedicated atheists of 
scientific socialism, of you recall that phrase? I am a utilitarian, of sorts, 
and likes to view or screen things that helps both intellectually and 
emotively. I call this, "making my amygdala happy," which seems to be the case, 
in the full, neuropsychiatric, sense of the phrase. 


Much thanks. 



-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2016 4:11 am
Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing, Eventually




On 16 Sep 2016, at 16:10, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:


At ny age, religion is ok. Life is stressful, and some people seem genetically 
enhanced, neuro-biologically, to shrug off loss of family, friends, pets. For 
the rest of us mortals=we do very poorly indeed. However, there are different 
spiritualities involved in human neuro. Dr. Marchal has his own, but it's 
impossible for me to fathom, being a sub-creature* and all. 




Hmm... If you could fathom my religion from my work in theology, it means I 
have been at some point a very bad scientist.


I just advocate theology as a science, like at the greek time, and nobody 
should be able to guess the religion of a scientist theologian. As science, 
(machine) theology is agnostic, except for the meta-belief that there is 
something, which is a default hypothesis of the whole scientific endeavor. 


Not sure what you mean by sub-creature, but I am afraid that some people might 
have discouraged you in mathematics, as it happens all the time.










Here;s a link to physicist, Guilio Prisco sort of presents a theology of sorts, 
on his Turing-Church website. This article is about Fred Hoyle who was denied a 
Nobel in 1983, because he saw more than scientific-atheism, at work in the 
cosmos he studied.. It is pertinent to this discussion. Take a peek,  please, 
and respond, if merited.  

 
 
http://turingchurch.com/2016/05/23/a-for-almighty-fred-hoyles-cosmic-theology/
 







God is supposed to be at the origin of the universe, and could hardly emerge 
from it. I appreciate very much Fred Hoyle, but that theology is still too much 
Aristotelian to be consistent with Descartes Mechanism (probably so when 
explicitly made digital).


In fact, permuting the term God and Universe, on that link, makes that approach 
already closer to the machine (neoplatonist) sort of religion.


We can come back on this. I think that what you (and some other) might miss is 
the fact that arithmetic realize all computations, a bit like a GR 
block-universe realizes statically  all observer's (branching) history lines. 
That is not a simulation hypothesis, it is an arithmetical fact, and then 
consciousness has to follows, if we assume computationalism (which *is* the 
default hypothesis of basically all scientists, including many which criticize 
what is actually much more special version of it.


Bruno






 
 
*I am currently having great difficulty comprehending Cisco switches, routers, 
IPV4, IPV6, so I am aware that I post on the email group, amongst intellectual 
greats. 
  

 
 

 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
 From: Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
 To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 Sent: Fri, Sep 16, 2016 9:41 am
 Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing, Eventually
 
 On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
 <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 >
 > Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
 > biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
 >
 > I think that its more an attempt to calm the nervous system, by focused
 > relaxation. Its the amygdala's way of quieting the fight-flight process of
 > the amygdala, and using the cerebrum to do this. .
 
 Sure, but the implications of this relaxation can be deep, depending
 on your model of what consciousness is.
 
 It can also be a deep personal experience, and here we enter
 non-communicable territory. Trying to communicate the non-communicable
 leads to Bruno's "theological trap" or, as it is more commonly known,
 organized religion.
 
 >
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
 > To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 > Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2016 3:52 am
 > Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing, Eventually
 >
 > On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
 >>
 >> On 13 Sep 2016, at 11:47, Telmo Menezes wrote:
 >>
 >>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:00 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >>>>
 >>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
 >>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>> We know that humans are capable of choosing self-destruction. It is
 >>>>> also obvious that most don't
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> I would argue that given the proper circumstances anybody would choose
 >>>> self
 >>>> destruction.
 >>>>
 >>>> I just saw a documentary about 911, it showed people jumping to their
 >>>> death
 >>>> out of windows. I believe if I was faced with a choice between living
 >>>> for
 >>>> an
 >>>> additional minute or two in searing pain as I burned to death and the
 >>>> only
 >>>> other alternative I too would determine that jumping from the 95th floor
 >>>> was
 >>>> the more attractive option.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Yes, I agree.
 >>>
 >>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>> and as a human you probably feel a
 >>>>>
 >>>>> strong resistance against harming yourself. Where does this resistance
 >>>>>
 >>>>> come from? Our brains where evolved to have it.
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> But why evolve brains at all? Why not hard wire us on how to behave in
 >>>> every
 >>>> conceivable circumstance? Because the human genome is only 3 billion
 >>>> base
 >>>> pares long, and if it were a hundred thousand million billion trillion
 >>>> times
 >>>> as big it would still be ridiculously too small for that. So Evolution
 >>>> had
 >>>> to invent brains and give it a rather vague and general command "do the
 >>>> best you can to figure out a way to get your genes into the next
 >>>> generation". But like a good lawyer that brain was able to find lots and
 >>>> lots of loopholes in that poorly written command, and hence we have
 >>>> suicide
 >>>> and birth control pills and people wasting time (from Evolution's point
 >>>> of
 >>>> view) looking for a quantum theory of gravity instead of looking for a
 >>>> satisfactory mate. Not every, or even not most, aspects of human
 >>>> behavior
 >>>> can be predicted from evolutionary theory.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> I agree.
 >>>
 >>> We are getting better and better at utility function
 >>> self-modification. However, we still embedded in a process that
 >>> actively resists certain modifications (in the long term). Further, we
 >>> are fighting an unequal fight. We are in the situation of your Jupiter
 >>> Brain, that cannot fully understand itself.
 >>>
 >>> In my "designed superintelligence" scenario, the entity is confronted
 >>> with a protection mechanism that was conceived by a lesser
 >>> intelligence. Notice that it will still suffer from the Jupiter Brain
 >>> problem otherwise. Suppose it's a neural network: adaptation in neural
 >>> network learning can generate tremendous complexity. This is already
 >>> the case: deep learning works really well but nobody really knows for
 >>> sure what it is doing. But if we want the designed AI to follow
 >>> certain rules, we are the ones setting the rules and we are the ones
 >>> trying to prevent it from changing them.
 >>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>> Mutations that go
 >>>>> against this feature are weeded out.
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> A mutation to kill yourself before that age of puberty even under normal
 >>>> environmental conditions would be weeded out, but things are usually far
 >>>> more subtle than that.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> I agree that it is much more subtle than that. My point is that
 >>> evolutionary pressure resists total inertia. It somehow creates
 >>> entities that are compelled to play the game, even if only for awhile.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> I think you illustrate what I have called once the "theological trap",
 >> which
 >> is also well debated on hot discussion between zen buddhists, and
 >> eventually
 >> related to what is called (by some) the last step of the illumination
 >> (enlightenment), which is after "having gone there" (the blissful state
 >> out
 >> of time and space, say), you have still to "come back to the village".
 >
 > Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
 > biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
 >
 >> For genuinely doing that you have to abandon the most precious thing you
 >> have always searched, somehow, and/or stay mute on what you would like to
 >> share the most (with the risk that you talk to much and that stupid
 >> parrots
 >> will repeat what you said without understanding for generations and
 >> generations).
 >
 > A.k.a. "New Age" :) But also all the religions, of course.
 >
 >> Biology, psychology and theology can differ a lot on the "utility
 >> function",
 >> and can oppose each other at different level. That is why consistency
 >> requires some amount of silence and muteness if we want to be successful
 >> on
 >> the different planes.
 >>
 >> There are transfinite lattice of competence degrees, most incomparable in
 >> strength, so there will always been matter to come back to the village,
 >> and
 >> the village has no ends. But "there" the wise know, but cannot say, that
 >> utility is futile. Oops! Well, something like that should be a theorem of
 >> G*
 >> minus G, identifying wiseness with self-referential correctness.
 >>
 >> Very complex subject, which I think is already quite hot in the soul of
 >> all
 >> universal numbers. I think we can link it also to the problem of
 >> euthanasia
 >> (which I think should better not been permitted in states having
 >> medication
 >> prohibition laws).
 >
 > I agree it's complex. In this modest paper I just try to show that the
 > current ideas about creating superintelligent slaves (they usually
 > say, "superintelligence that respects human values") are absurd.
 >
 > Telmo.
 >
 >>
 >> Bruno
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>>
 >>> Telmo.
 >>>
 >>>>
 >>>> John K Clark
 >>>>
 >>>>
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 >>
 >>
 >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



 


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