*I am currently having great difficulty comprehending Cisco
switches, routers, IPV4, IPV6, so I am aware that I post on the
email group, amongst intellectual greats.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Sep 16, 2016 9:41 am
Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing,
Eventually
On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
> biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
>
> I think that its more an attempt to calm the nervous system, by
focused
> relaxation. Its the amygdala's way of quieting the fight-flight
process of
> the amygdala, and using the cerebrum to do this. .
Sure, but the implications of this relaxation can be deep, depending
on your model of what consciousness is.
It can also be a deep personal experience, and here we enter
non-communicable territory. Trying to communicate the non-communicable
leads to Bruno's "theological trap" or, as it is more commonly known,
organized religion.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
> To: everything-list <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2016 3:52 am
> Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing,
Eventually
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>
>> On 13 Sep 2016, at 11:47, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:00 AM, John Clark
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> We know that humans are capable of choosing self-destruction.
It is
>>>>> also obvious that most don't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would argue that given the proper circumstances anybody would
choose
>>>> self
>>>> destruction.
>>>>
>>>> I just saw a documentary about 911, it showed people jumping to
their
>>>> death
>>>> out of windows. I believe if I was faced with a choice between
living
>>>> for
>>>> an
>>>> additional minute or two in searing pain as I burned to death
and the
>>>> only
>>>> other alternative I too would determine that jumping from the
95th floor
>>>> was
>>>> the more attractive option.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> and as a human you probably feel a
>>>>>
>>>>> strong resistance against harming yourself. Where does this
resistance
>>>>>
>>>>> come from? Our brains where evolved to have it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But why evolve brains at all? Why not hard wire us on how to
behave in
>>>> every
>>>> conceivable circumstance? Because the human genome is only 3
billion
>>>> base
>>>> pares long, and if it were a hundred thousand million billion
trillion
>>>> times
>>>> as big it would still be ridiculously too small for that. So
Evolution
>>>> had
>>>> to invent brains and give it a rather vague and general command
"do the
>>>> best you can to figure out a way to get your genes into the next
>>>> generation". But like a good lawyer that brain was able to find
lots and
>>>> lots of loopholes in that poorly written command, and hence we
have
>>>> suicide
>>>> and birth control pills and people wasting time (from
Evolution's point
>>>> of
>>>> view) looking for a quantum theory of gravity instead of
looking for a
>>>> satisfactory mate. Not every, or even not most, aspects of human
>>>> behavior
>>>> can be predicted from evolutionary theory.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> We are getting better and better at utility function
>>> self-modification. However, we still embedded in a process that
>>> actively resists certain modifications (in the long term).
Further, we
>>> are fighting an unequal fight. We are in the situation of your
Jupiter
>>> Brain, that cannot fully understand itself.
>>>
>>> In my "designed superintelligence" scenario, the entity is
confronted
>>> with a protection mechanism that was conceived by a lesser
>>> intelligence. Notice that it will still suffer from the Jupiter
Brain
>>> problem otherwise. Suppose it's a neural network: adaptation in
neural
>>> network learning can generate tremendous complexity. This is
already
>>> the case: deep learning works really well but nobody really
knows for
>>> sure what it is doing. But if we want the designed AI to follow
>>> certain rules, we are the ones setting the rules and we are the
ones
>>> trying to prevent it from changing them.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Mutations that go
>>>>> against this feature are weeded out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A mutation to kill yourself before that age of puberty even
under normal
>>>> environmental conditions would be weeded out, but things are
usually far
>>>> more subtle than that.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that it is much more subtle than that. My point is that
>>> evolutionary pressure resists total inertia. It somehow creates
>>> entities that are compelled to play the game, even if only for
awhile.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you illustrate what I have called once the "theological
trap",
>> which
>> is also well debated on hot discussion between zen buddhists, and
>> eventually
>> related to what is called (by some) the last step of the
illumination
>> (enlightenment), which is after "having gone there" (the blissful
state
>> out
>> of time and space, say), you have still to "come back to the
village".
>
> Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
> biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
>
>> For genuinely doing that you have to abandon the most precious
thing you
>> have always searched, somehow, and/or stay mute on what you would
like to
>> share the most (with the risk that you talk to much and that stupid
>> parrots
>> will repeat what you said without understanding for generations and
>> generations).
>
> A.k.a. "New Age" :) But also all the religions, of course.
>
>> Biology, psychology and theology can differ a lot on the "utility
>> function",
>> and can oppose each other at different level. That is why
consistency
>> requires some amount of silence and muteness if we want to be
successful
>> on
>> the different planes.
>>
>> There are transfinite lattice of competence degrees, most
incomparable in
>> strength, so there will always been matter to come back to the
village,
>> and
>> the village has no ends. But "there" the wise know, but cannot
say, that
>> utility is futile. Oops! Well, something like that should be a
theorem of
>> G*
>> minus G, identifying wiseness with self-referential correctness.
>>
>> Very complex subject, which I think is already quite hot in the
soul of
>> all
>> universal numbers. I think we can link it also to the problem of
>> euthanasia
>> (which I think should better not been permitted in states having
>> medication
>> prohibition laws).
>
> I agree it's complex. In this modest paper I just try to show that
the
> current ideas about creating superintelligent slaves (they usually
> say, "superintelligence that respects human values") are absurd.
>
> Telmo.
>
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Telmo.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John K Clark
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
>>
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