On 24 Apr 2017, at 00:28, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> Suppose just for the sake of argument that
non-physical computations did not exist, how would our physical
world be different?
> It would like if the number 2 does not exist.
No it would not because if non-physical computations did not exist
then one physical rock and another physical rock would STILL have
the same effect on the physical universe as 2 physical rocks do..
If the number 2 does not exist, you are the pope, and 2 physical rocks
is the same as one physical rocks, with only one atom ...
> Computation and "universal machine" are non physical notions,
Notions require intelligence and intelligence requires matter
that obeys the laws of physics.
In which theory? You talk like an evangelist.
> discovered independently by mathematicians
And mathematicians, just like everybody else, are made
of matter that obeys the laws of physics.
I can agree, if you talk about human mathematicians. But even if true,
that does not mean matter is not emerging from the computation already
realized in elementary arithmetic. Even in pure arithmetic, human
mathematicians are made of matter.
> the fact that the physical reality can implement computations
might suggest already that the physical reality might emerge from
computations.
If the non-physical number manipulation 1+1=2 exists
It exists indeed.
then the non-physical number manipulation 1+1=3 exists too.
It does not. What exists are "dumb relative number asserting that this
exists", but it does not make the computation of 1+1= 3 exists.
Physics can tell one from of manipulation from the other
because in the physical world one rock and another rock will never
behave like 3 rocks. How can pure mathematics do the same thing? You
can talk about Robinson arithmetic all you want but there are a
infinite number of ways numbers can be manipulated in pure
mathematics and Robinson arithmetic is just one of those ways. But
there is one and only one way numbers can be manipulated that
is consistent with the physical world, and we call that one way of
manipulation a "calculation".
It is a calculation, indeed a physical one. But the arithmetical
reality explain the appearances of both consciousness and of physical
calculations. The primary physical miss both consciousness and the
appearances of the physical, for anyone not stuck in word salad, of
course.
Bruno
John K Clark
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