On 05 Sep 2017, at 04:31, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
> With mechanism, we have to listen to all the copies.What you
say is contradicted by all your copies.
Is that it? Is that all you've got to say? It was a long post,
what exactly was contradicted by ANY of the copies? Dis it turn out
that the Moscow Man didn't see Moscow??
That it turns out the the H-man didn't see Moscow.
We agree that the M-man see M, but the H-man was unable to predict
that he would specifically feel to be the one in Washington.
That is even clearer in the iterative case. The copy with the story
"0001101111100010011" has the memory that each time he push on the
button he got a specific results (0 or 1, never both) and has never
been able to see a pattern helping him to predict the next result. A
simple calculation shows that the vast majority of the copies are in
that situation, and in the limit, those with a computable predictable
history (like "110010010000111111" (the digits of PI)) will have a
measure null.
Bruno
John K Clark
On 04 Sep 2017, at 19:12, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
>>> But 3-1 you + 3-1 you = 2 3-1-you yes indeed.
The key point is that 1-you + 1-you can give only one 1-you (+ a
3-1-....
>> Homemade babytalk.
> Not at all. It is only the nuances that we need to make the
question precise.
Nuance my ass! I know you like scientific sounding words like
"protocols" but all the peas in the world can't save "What one and
only one city will I see from THE 1p after I am duplicated and
become 2?" from being gibberish. No amount of peepee can put a
shine on that poopoo.
> You keep saying "the question is not precise", but you
dismiss the precision
There is ZERO precision. The fundamental problem is there
is not even the hint of a explanation of what "Your one and only
one future 1p" means if Mr. You is about to enter a you
duplicating machine. And that's why peepee is poopoo.
> See any of my previous explanation of 1p and 3p,
I've been reading them for years and doing so again won't help,
they've been either circular, self contradictory, or just
meaningless gibberish due to the use of personal pronouns with no
referent. Another problem is you treat the future the same way you
treat the past, but the two things are different.
> and if you don't undersand, ask a question.
OK I'll ask a "question", what is the name of the one
and only one city I will see from my one and only one "
THE 1p" after I have become 2? You can't answer that, not
because you don't know the answer but because the answer does not
exist before duplication, AND IT NEVER WILL EXIST, not even
after duplication. And the reason there will never be an
answer is there never was a question.
> the point is that the H-man cannot know which of the W-man
or the M-man he will find himself to be in the first person sense
Pure, triple distilled, extra virgin, 100% gibberish. You ask
"which" and that means you want one and only one answer, but the H-
man is about to be duplicated, so nobody can answer that "question"
before the duplication AND NOBODY CAN ANSWER IT AFTER THE
DUPLICATION EITHER. The H-man cannot know the meaning of gibberish
because gibberish has no meaning.
> with not an atom of ambiguity, just an indeterminacy.
So "he" can't predict what city "he" will be in after the
duplication, fine, but who is "he"? If "he" is the Moscow man or
the Washington man then it's true they can't predict it,
because neither of them existed before the duplication. If "he" is
the Helsinki man then "he" CAN predict that the Washington man will
be the one that sees Washington and the Moscow man will be the one
that will see Moscow, I admit that's not very profound but it is
nevertheless true and there is nothing more to predict.
But what about "THE 1p" I hear you say, that can't be predicted.
Well that's true, there is no way to predict it if the Moscow man
or the Washington man will get "THE 1p" if Mr. The1p has just gone
threw a THE 1p duplicating machine because then there is no such
thing as THE 1p, there is only A 1p.
NEWS FLASH: I have just discovered, drum roll please, Tomato
Indeterminacy! There are 2 identical red tomatoes in front of you
but you are unable to pick up the one and only one red tomato in
front of you. How deep! I must be a philosophical genius for having
discovered something that profound!
> the H-man is unable to write in his diary which
specific city 1p-he will see, or he will 1p-see, despite being
able to predict that he will see a specific city,
Remember a long long time ago when Bruno Marchal was going on
and on about the virtues of precision? Please explain precisely
what on earth a unique "1p-he" means in the context of the future
and the availability of 1p-he duplicating machines.
> You continue to dismiss the 1p-experience of all the copies.
Yes, I dismiss the idea that "THE 1p experience" exists after
somebody went threw a THE 1p experience duplicating machine because
I can see no reason why one of the copies subjective experience
would be the one true one and be more legitimate than the other;
but I do NOT dismiss the idea that "A 1p experience" exists.
> Just answer the question clearly one time, then Do you
agree that the H-man can predict that he (in the 1p sense) will
[...]
This is a question about the future, about what will happen to
Mr. H-maninthe1-psence, so John Clark is not going to agree to
anything until Bruno Marchal explains what "he in the 1p
sense" means tomorrow if "he in the 1p sense" is going to be
duplicated today.
It's always the same, in all "explanations" Bruno Marchal
either uses personal pronouns or peepee, and neither has a
particle of meaning in a world with people duplicating machines.
When pressed Bruno Marchal defines pronouns in terms of peepee
and peepee in terms of pronouns, and round and round we go.
> drink a cup of coffee with certainty (modulo all default
hypotheses, and assuming of course that a cup of coffee will be
given to both copies)?
Explain who you want information about and I'll give you an
answer. Do you want to know about the coffee drinking habits of
people who remember seeing Helsinki only? Or people who remember
seeing Helsinki and Moscow? Or people who remember seeing Helsinki
and Washington? Or people who remember being John Clark? Or
people who remember something else?
I'm not being pedantic, if both the future and people duplicating
machines are involved then these are essential distinctions or
gibberish awaits. For example, if Mr. He means people who remember
being in Helsinki only then Mr. He will drink no coffee at all, if
Mr. He means John Clark then Mr. He will drink coffee in Moscow
AND Washington.
John K Clark
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