On 06 Dec 2017, at 12:41, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On 6/12/2017 9:59 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 05 Dec 2017, at 01:30, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On 5/12/2017 3:34 am, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 04 Dec 2017, at 04:34, Russell Standish wrote:
On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 02:11:11PM +1100, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On 3/12/2017 9:03 am, Russell Standish wrote:
The point being that the uncertainty in the coin's initial
position is
itself due to the amplification of quantum uncertainty by
classical
chaos.
That may happen in some cases, but just looking at the numbers
says that
normal thermal motions will far outweigh the effect of any
residual quantum
uncertainty. In most cases where the Lyanpunov exponents lead
to classical
chaos, there is more than enough classical thermal uncertainty
in the
initial conditions so that any residual quantum uncertainty is
irrelevant.
But surely, classical thermal uncertainty is just due to
amplification
of quantum uncertainty by means of molecular chaos.
Indeed. Bruce seems to introduce a continuous collapse in the
picture. That classical thermal uncertainty can only augment the
number of terms of the superposition. It amplifies the chance of
getting a superposition of the outcomes.
See my previous reply. There is no collapse i the picture I am
presenting -- I am talking about a pure Everettian many worlds
picture. And in that picture, classical thermal uncertainty can
never produce quantum superpositions, or add terms to them. Such
thermal uncertainties certainly do not amplify "the chance of
getting a superposition of the outcomes". You are talking nonsense.
The superposition are there at the start. Then the classical chaos
amplifies them, only. They become very quickly not detectable, but
this means only that we can forget them FAPP. Your invocation of
"classical" seems to me rather magical. We might use "quasi
classical", or "FAPP classical", but there is nothing classical but
first person plural statistical appearances.
So you agree the any superposition that there might have been
initially rapidly disappears? (We can forget the superposition FAPP.)
Yes, if you make precise that the disappearance is only in the memory
of the observers. It is 1p plural.
In the rest, you are arguing trivial semantics. The classical world
is the objective physical world that emerges from the quantum
substrate --
I would say that without collapse: the classical worlds are the
objective physical world that emerges from the quantum substrate --
from the points of view of the observers.
what you confusingly call the 1p plural, but everyone else calls the
third person intersubjectively agreed world.
Which one? None of the worlds can ever disappear f we apply the SWE
to the systems "observer + particles".
The 1p get plurals by the contagion of the superposition. If you look
at the spin of the particles and find up, you put yourself in the
superposition "seeing up + seeing down", and then, when I ask you the
result (actually before by the thermal entagnglement, but let us say),
I put myself into the superposition (up + down), but I cannot be aware
of that.
It is "semantics" with respect to FAPP, but in metaphysics/theology,
those nuances are important. I think.
Bruno
Bruce
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