On 4/2/2018 10:53 AM, smitra wrote:
On 02-04-2018 17:27, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 1 Apr 2018, at 00:29, Lawrence Crowell
<goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 2:32:06 PM UTC-6, telmo_menezes
wrote:

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Lawrence Crowell
<goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:
You would have to replicate then not only the dynamics of
neurons, but every
biomolecule in the neurons, and don't forget about the
oligoastrocytes and
other glial cells. Many enzymes for instance to multi-state
systems, say in
a simple case where a single amino acid residue of
phosphorylated or
unphosphorylated, and in effect are binary switching units. To
then make
this work you now need to have the brain states mapped out down
to the
molecular level, and further to have their combinatorial
relationships
mapped. Biomolecules also behave in water, so you have to model
all the
water molecules. Given the brain has around 10^{25} or a few
moles of
molecules the number of possible combinations might be on the
order of
10^{10^{25}} this is a daunting task. Also your computer has to
accurately
encode the dynamics of molecules -- down to the quantum
mechanics of their
bonds.

This is another way of saying that biological systems, even that
of a basic
prokaryote, are beyond our current abilities to simulate. You
can't just
hand wave away the enormous problems with just simulating a
bacillus, let
alone something like the brain. Now of course one can do some
simulations to
learn about the brain in a model system, but this is far from
mapping a
brain and its conscious state into a computer.

Well maybe, but this is just you guessing.
Nobody knows the necessary level of detail.

Telmo.

Take LSD or psilocybin mushrooms and what enters the brain are
chemical compounds that interact with neural ligand gates. The
effect is a change in the perception of consciousness. Then if we
load coarse grained brain states into a computer that ignores lots
of fine grained detail, will that result in something different?
Hell yeah! The idea one could set up a computer neural network,
upload some data file from a brain scan and that this would be a
completely conscious person is frankly absurd.

This means that you bet on a lower substitution level. I guess others
have already answered this. Note that the proof that physics is a
branch of arithmetic does not put any bound of the graining of the
substitution level. It could even be that your brain is the entire
universe described at the level of superstring theory, that will
change nothing in the conclusion of the reasoning. Yet it would be a
threat for evolution and biology as conceived today.

Bruno

LC


In experiments involving stimulation/inhibition of certain brain parts using strong magnetic fields where people look for a few seconds at a screen with a large number of dots, it was found that significantly more people can correctly guess the number of dots when the field was switched on. The conclusion was that under normal circumstances when we are not aware of lower level information, such as the exact number of dots ion the screen, that information is actually present in the brain but we're not consciously aware of it. Certain people who have "savant syndrome" can be constantly aware of such lower level information.

And not just people

https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/04/16/302943533/the-ultimate-animal-experience-losing-a-memory-quiz-to-a-chimp

which suggests to me that the part of one's brain that instantiates consciousness competes with other parts and may interfere with their function.  I think everyone experiences this in sports.  Who hasn't missed a shot in tennis by "thinking about it too much?"

Brent


This then suggests to me that the substitution level can be taken at a much higher level than the level of neurons. In the MWI we would have to be imagined being spread out over sectors where information such as the number of dots on a screen is different. So, what you're not aware of isn't fixed for you, and therefore it cannot possibly define your identity

Saibal


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