On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 11:02:33 AM UTC, Bruce wrote: > > From: 'scerir' via Everything List <[email protected] > <javascript:>> > > > K. Camilleri wrote a very long paper about 'Constructing the Myth of the > Copenhagen Interpretation'. But there are many **different** versions > on-line. > > https://philpapers.org/rec/CAMCTM > > https://tinyurl.com/y9a9odek > > He points out that the subjectivist view of the role of the observer > (consciousness) is a 'misconception' of the Copenhagen Interpretation. > > 'Although Heisenberg did sometimes speak of a subjective element in > quantum physics, this should not be taken to mean that the consciousness of > the ‘observer’ plays a crucial roe lint eh measurement interaction. In > Physics and Philosophy in 1958, Heisenberg argued that “the transition from > the ‘possible’ to the ‘actual’ takes place during the act of observation” > but this transition occurs “applies to the physical, not the psychical act > of observation”. Only once the “interaction of the object with the > measuring device” has taken place can we speak of the actualization, but > here he was careful to point out that “it is not connected with the act of > registration of the result, by the mind of observer” (Heisenberg, 1958, p. > 54).' > > 'So where did this view come from? And how did this view come to be > associated with the likes of Bohr and Heisenberg? Scholars have often > traced this view to von Neumann’s analysis of measurement in his > Mathematische Grundlagen der Quantenmechanik published in 1932 (von > Neumann, 1955). Whereas in Bohr’s complementarity, the measurement device > is described using the concepts of classical physics, and not according to > the laws of quantum mechanics, in von Neumann’s presentation, the > measurement device is given a quantum-mechanical treatment (Bub, 1995). > According to von Neumann’s formal treatment of the problem, when we observe > a quantum system, there is an instantaneous change of the wave function in > Hilbert space – it collapses – a process which is not described by the > Schrödinger equation. Precisely what von Neumann’s philosophical views on > this matter were is more difficult to judge, though as Becker and Gavroglou > have observed there is no evidence of him endorsing a realist view of the > wave function, nor does he make any explicit reference to the need to > introduce the consciousness of the observer in the measuring chain (Becker, > 2004; Gavroglou, 1995, p. 171).Rather it was the 1939 monograph La Théorie > de l’Observation en Méchanique Quantique by London and Bauer which we find > the first explicit mention of the claim that the reduction of the wave > function was the result of the conscious activity of the human mind > (French, 2002).' > > etc etc > > > Interesting..... I have often thought that Bohr and Heisenberg were not > quite the monsters of positivism that they are often painted as these days. > In fact, I would suggest that the prevalence of decoherence means that a > case can be made that everything is, in practice, classical, and that the > quantum only shows itself reluctantly in the small and the isolated. > Whether that means that the classical is prior -- essential for > understanding the quantum -- is something that can be argued about. But I > do not think that such an idea is entirely silly, and nor can it just be > dismissed out-of-hand. > > The world we know and experience is classical, after all. Else we, as > classical beings, could not experience it! > > Bruce >
It seems Von Neumann is the culprit. See http://www.informationphilosopher.com/introduction/physics/heisenberg_cut.html Scroll down to paragraph 6. Extensive von Neumann quote on this issue. AG -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
