On 6/12/2018 3:18 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:


On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:14:56 PM UTC, Brent wrote:



    On 6/12/2018 3:02 PM, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:



    On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 8:20:00 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com
    wrote:



        On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 6:13:04 PM UTC, Brent wrote:



            On 6/12/2018 10:51 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:


            On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 5:28:05 PM UTC, Brent wrote:



                On 6/12/2018 1:01 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
                *The bottom line, or if you will, the 800 pound
                elephant in the room, is that the macro entities
                which are included in the seminal superposition of
                states for decoherence, are in thermal equilibrium
                with their environments, constantly emitting and
                absorbing photons -- before, during, and after
                their inclusions in said state. Thus, they never
                are, nor can they ever be isolated from their
                environments, making this seminal superposition of
                states an illusory construction. AG *

                Don't you see that you're just repeating the old
                debate about the Heisenberg cut.  Where's the line
                between micro and macro?  You think simplistically
                by considering only really big stuff as classical
                and ignoring the fact that there is a whole range of
                sizes.

                Brent

            *
            I have NOT. I have stated several times that some macro
            objects are EXCLUDED, such as those with well defined
            deBroglie wave lengths like billiard balls and
            Buckyballs. For the vast set of applicable macro
            objects, my claim remains; that there is a fallacy of
            including these objects in superpositions, as doing so
            leads to a foolish conclusion; MW. AG*

            You're missing the point that in every QM experiment
            there's a step where micro goes to macro. It doesn't
            solve anything to rant about de Broglie wavelengths of cats.

            Brent


        *Before the Masters of the Universe included Observers,
        Instruments, and Environments in the wf's, did quantum
        experiments imply MW (excluding the MWI based on the SWE)?  AG*


    *As I see it, decoherence theory "solves" the cat paradox by
    assuming (falsely) that the cat can be isolated and then
    decoheres with extreme rapidly, But then we're still left with a
    cat which is alive and dead simulteously, but only for a very
    very short duration.  So No, I don't see this as a solution.
    CMIIAW. AG*

    The cat is never isolated (that's a condition you just invented),
    but that doesn't mean it can't be split into (FAPP) orthogonal
    states by becoming entangled with the poison gas which is
    entangled with the radioactive atom which is in a superposition of
    decayed and not-decayed.

    Brent


*Doesn't the superposition of states used in the cat problem. or indeed any quantum superposition, requires the system being measured to be isolated? AG *

No.  The experimentally interesting cases tend to need isolation so the cross-terms of the superposition can be known and controlled, but it's not a mathematical requirement.  Suppose Schroedinger, his lab, his box, and the cat were all perfectly isolated.  There would be some eigenstates corresponding the cat being alive and some corresponding to it being dead and there would be others corresponding to the cat being alive+dead.  But the latter would be unstable in the sense that the state of the system would evolve quickly through those to ones where the cat is dead.  In theory, being perfectly isolated, it would have a Poincare' recurrence time...but it would be many times longer than the age of universe. So what do you call the states that the system is in most of the time, where the cat is dead.  They are superpositions of different microscopic states which are macroscopically indistinguishable. Just as were the states when the cat was alive.

Brent

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