On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 20:12:19 UTC+3, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:57 AM 'Cosmin Visan' < > everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>> wrote: > > *> If you obtain consciousness, that consciousness will have free will, so* >> [...] > > > Free Will?! In the entire history of philosophy or law nothing has > generated more fuzzy thinking than "free will", it's so bad it's not even > wrong. To be wrong an idea must first convey a thought, an erroneous > thought but a thought nevertheless, but like a burp "free will" conveys > nothing, it's just a sound made with the mouth. >
I don't know. I feel free. Don't you ? > > >>The "I" in AI stands for intelligence not consciousness, do you believe >>> a AI can be intelligent? And by "intelligent" I mean whatever you meant >>> when, as I'm sure you've said at some point in your life about another >>> human, "that guy is really smart". >>> >> >> *> Intelligence is the property of consciousness of bringing new qualia >> into existence that never existed before in the entire history of >> existence.* >> > > You have no way of directly detecting the qualia experience by other > people, assuming they experience qualia at all, all you can do is assume > without proof that when they behave in ways similar to you they experience > qualia similar to the qualia you experience. And the fact that a AI's brain > is dry and hard and not wet and squishy is no reason to treat them any > differently. I judge entities, human or otherwise, by the content of their > ideas not the wetness of their brain. > To think that an AI has "brain" is to have no understanding whatsoever of computer science and to believe that magic happens there. You don't even need to talk about the intelligence of other people. Is enough to look at how intelligence works in your case. And in your case, it works by bringing new qualia into existence. When you first saw a dog, you were able to see it because your consciousness brought into existence the quale of "dog" out of nothing. An AI cannot do that. If you don't specifically put in its database the information "dog", it will never identify dogs. This is because AI are deterministic systems, while consciousnesses are creative entities. > > > >> *Don't you think this is quite unlike the fantasy of AI ? * >> > > Nope. And if conscious AI's are a fantasy then all minds other than my own > are a fantasy including yours. > This is just twisted logic. I will let you figure it out where you are wrong and untie the nodes. > > > "Matter" doesn't exist. >> > > OK, but then can you tell me how things would be different if matter DID > exist? If you can't then the existence or nonexistence of something is a > question of no importance whatsoever. And that road leads to madness. I can > tell you that if the atoms in your were to cease to exist and no record was > kept about how the atoms were arranged it would have a rather important > effect on your consciousness. And I can also tell you that when atoms of > silicon are arranged in certain ways it can beat you at Chess and GO and > can solve partial differential equations that you can not. At one time that > was considered intelligent but some keep moving the goalpost so that now > intelligence is defined as anything that computers aren't good at, *YET*. > > I will tell you how things would be different if matter did exist if you tell me how things would be different is Santa Claus existed. Yes, the disappearance of "atoms" will have an impact upon my consciousness in the same way that the disappearance of facebook will have an impact upon my consciousness. This doesn't mean facebook generates my consciousness. Also airplanes can fly better than birds. Does that mean that airplanes are alive ? Nobody moves the goalpost of intelligence anywhere. Intelligence is what has always been: the ability to bring new qualia into existence out of nothing. And AI will never do that. So AI was never about intelligence to start with. > > > >> What's with this "we" business? I know for a fact I'm conscious but >>> your consciousness is an unproven hypothesis no different from assuming an >>> AI is conscious. >>> >> >> *> Is not at all the same thing.* >> > > Tell me the difference! I am quite certain you don't consider your fellow > humans to be conscious all the time, not when they're sleeping or under > anesthesia or dead because they don't behave intelligently then. I can't > think why the same criteria should not be used for an AI. But as a > practical matter it will make little difference if you believe a AI is > conscious or not because in just a few years humanity will no longer be in > the driver's seat. So the important question is will the AI consider you to > be conscious or not. > These are not the reasons. The reasons are as stated above: intelligence means bringing new qualia into existence out of nothing. > > >> > *Other consciousnesses are postulated based on our own consciousness, * >> > > Exactly. But how does that show that a computer can't be conscious even > when it's acting intelligently? > > Using reason. If you use reason, reason will show you that intelligence means bringing new qualia into existence out of nothing, which AI as a deterministic system cannot. So AI doesn't even act intelligently, because to act intelligently you need to bring new ideas in existence, something that AI never does. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
